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Where a vehicle is towing an frame with a vehicle on that has it's own means of propulsion unless it has broken down, can not be defined as a trailer
So let's get this straight, then. The bloke down the road's caravan, complete with it's fancy remote controlled mover system, isn't actually a trailer according to your definition, because it's got its own means of propulsion (unless the battery's gone flat). Or do you need a further refinement of your definition, "means of propulsion at >5mph"?
For what it's worth, I got rid of my trailer not because of storage issues, but because it was a pig to use and v.skitty on the road compared to an a-framed car. I've no objections to anyone using one though. Pity I can't say the same about people leaving us a-framers alone...
Where a vehicle is towing an frame with a vehicle on that has it's own means of propulsion unless it has broken down, can not be defined as a trailer
So let's get this straight, then. The bloke down the road's caravan, complete with it's fancy remote controlled mover system, isn't actually a trailer according to your definition, because it's got its own means of propulsion (unless the battery's gone flat). Or do you need a further refinement of your definition, "means of propulsion at >5mph"?
For what it's worth, I got rid of my trailer not because of storage issues, but because it was a pig to use and v.skitty on the road compared to an a-framed car. I've no objections to anyone using one though. Pity I can't say the same about people leaving us a-framers alone...
Hi.
The bloke down the road with the caravan mover is moving a caravan with all the relevant stuff that is required to make a caravan totally legal, it's you that says its compared to a trailer and is a bad analogy and example, and not very well thought through.
You say you had difficulty with a trailer and couldn't tow it properly, maybe you might have benefited from a course on towing, I have never had a "Skitty" trailer even though I have been towing all kinds of trailers box to boat for the last 40 years, perhaps I have been lucky or I know how to load them, you choose.. One of these Minno Max on the back you can't tell you are towing, and the brakes are superb on them.
And I didn't invent the A frame scenarios and any difficulties with using them with the various authorities, I would have bought one myself if I thought they were legal, but I don't, as and when they are and the definitive answer comes along and this thread becomes as daft as the gassing thread, I would consider having one, but on the other hand I have no trouble with trailers and the one size I have fits all cars that I would put on it, so my spending has ended on that score.
And I would never presume to criticise any one towing with a toad as it is no body's business but their own, and I would like all such folk to have the perceived or otherwise problem with any authorities resolved in the favour of the folk who use them..
ray.
Last edited by rayrecrok on Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:06 pm; edited 2 times in total ______________________________________________________________ Damn you Autocorrect. DAMN YOU TO HE’LL.
So you are not a lawyer with the definitive answer, then how can you judge other folks opinions which you seem to want to do
You know very well that I'm not a lawyer because both of us have been participating on this forum for long enough, and have had previous interactions. If that was aimed at being a trap, then - oh dear - I've fallen right into it.
As for judging your opinions - which is actually what you mean - I've not expressed any opinion about your opinions, and therefore haven't judged them.
If you take a few seconds to re-read my reply, you'll find that I said your post above is not the legal definition of a trailer. That's not my opinion - it's a statement which I'm qualified to make. If that makes me a lawyer in your universe, so be it.
I also clarified that you are entitled to your opinions, and welcome to them.
So you are not a lawyer with the definitive answer, then how can you judge other folks opinions which you seem to want to do
You know very well that I'm not a lawyer because both of us have been participating on this forum for long enough, and have had previous interactions. If that was aimed at being a trap, then - oh dear - I've fallen right into it.
As for judging your opinions - which is actually what you mean - I've not expressed any opinion about your opinions, and therefore haven't judged them.
If you take a few seconds to re-read my reply, you'll find that I said your post above is not the legal definition of a trailer. That's not my opinion - it's a statement which I'm qualified to make. If that makes me a lawyer in your universe, so be it.
I also clarified that you are entitled to your opinions, and welcome to them.
End of.
Dougie.
That's all right then .. I still love you and would have your baby's, OK I would have to send the wife round for that one.. Don't get upset its only them damn toads rattling everybody's cage again..
Slimy buggers. ray.
______________________________________________________________ Damn you Autocorrect. DAMN YOU TO HE’LL.
I find that quite offensive. It should read "I still love you and would have your babies". Personal insults are one thing, but aberrant apostrophes are just unacceptable.
The bloke down the road with the caravan mover is moving a caravan with all the relevant stuff that is required to make a caravan totally legal, it's you that says its compared to a trailer and is a bad analogy and example, and not very well thought through.
Perhaps, but your earlier post sought to define a trailer as something with no means of self-propulsion. Watching things on a typical CC site, that definition would mean that the bulk of caravans aren't legally trailers either.
rayrecrok wrote:
You say you had difficulty with a trailer and couldn't tow it properly
Did I? There must be some kind of virtual invisible ink that I hadn't noticed. What I said is that it was a pig to load (it was, took about 5x as long as it takes to attach/detach the a-frame), and that it was skitty on the road (it was, for example the tail wagged the dog when passing HGVs on the motorway, not something I've come across with an a-frame : note I said skitty, not dangerous). And yes, I was properly loaded, although with a front-engined diesel car, it's very difficult to get the noseweight correct on a 2 wheeled trailer.
I notice you've got a 4 wheeled trailer, the trade-off, of course, being extra weight. Your Autotrail is undoubtedly different, but with the currrent generation ones it's difficult to tow such a trailer - typically max trailer weight is 1050kg, and my car+frame adds up to just shy of that. It would be a remarkable trailer that weighed less than the 30kg available to tow once the weight of my car's knocked off.
I've nothing against trailers, just don't want one myself.
But the caravans do not have a means of propulsion, not one which is legal to be used on a highway. The owner has a powered attachment which enables manouvering on a drive or campsite.
And I am a lawyer and I have set out the definition above, so why argue with rayrecrock above about the definition.
Yes, I'm aware that you're a lawyer and respect your posts on this subject (if you look back you'll see I've thanked a few) - so no need to remind me of your profession on each post.
The reason I pulled up Ray's post...apart from an interesting diversion on a dull Saturday evening...was to use the scientists' approach of testing the counterfactual : his assertion that a powered vehicle couldn't be a trailer was demonstrated as being a flawed criterion by the example I gave. Your citation from the C&U Regs provided the trailer definition, but wasn't altogether helpful in discounting whether self-propulsion came into it, given the lack of definition of "vehicle".
Incidentally, although my comment about meaning "self propelled at >10mph" was tongue in cheek, I understand the distinction of whether a caravan being moved using a power mover is legally a self-propelled vehicle could be the speed it can go at...certainly for mobility scooters, whether road tax is required is determined whether it can exceed 4mph.
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