Unlicenced for 7500kg Forums

AutoK

Was just browsing through some MH tech details it seems a lot of the larger coach built MH around 7m length have uprated suspension
eg Fiats camping car upgrade to gvw 3850kg.
As this technically takes the vehicle over the 3500kg weight limit for DVLA
As I understand people who have passed their driving test after 1997 no longer get 7500kg entitlement.
Just wandering how many people are driving around illegally.
I apologise if this has already been covered.

MandyandDave · Moderator

Good point raised whether it's been covered or not! Smile

Another thing to consider is putting a heavy trailer with a car on behind the M/H can also push the weight limit over the top too!

Basically if your M/H is of the 'larger breeds' and up on the weight limit, it's important that all potential drivers have the correct license to do so.

AFAIK there are no contingecy plans to retrospectively apply the 3500/4250kg limit to license holders (pre '97) holders will continue to enjoy that entitlement until 70yrs of age.

So when No.1 son asks "Dad may I borrow the Motorhome this weekend"
the law says no Razz

Regards M&D

Anonymous

I suspect that there are a few. Also probably some tuggers out there towing over their limit. And a few farmers.
I think these limits should be more widely publicized. Confused

GeorgeTelford · Account Deactivated

Hi all

Interesting fact

There as only ever been one attempted prosecution for someone driving a motorhome which was over the licence holders "entitlement" here is a post I made elsewhere that ran and ran.

[b:9eec48f2ca]I have been researching this for over a year now and thought American motor home drivers were just plain lucky to have got away with driving 38ft vehicles that weigh far in excess of 7.5 tonnes on ordinary licences (i.e. not LGV = Large Goods Vehicle or HGV Heavy goods Vehicle)

There are no legal precedents as no case as been "tried", however I have found one case that went to court three times, twice adjourned by the CPS and then on the third occasion they withdrew all charges and the court awarded paid all costs for the defendant!

The CPS cited lack of evidence however this does not ring true as they had Video Camera Evidence, Police on the ground witnesses, and the driver did not deny driving the vehicle, the vehicle was travelling in the Outside lane of the M6 a road position that is totally illegal for LGV and HGV vehicles.

Two Leading London firms of solicitors and a top Barrister were hired to act on behalf of the Driver Mr Mark Bishop by Travelworld, the main thrust of their defence was that the driver was driving a motor caravan and not a goods vehicle so therefore an LGV or HGV licence was not required.

It seems highly likely that the case was dropped because there are no separate rules for motor caravan licensing and that because an LGV and HGV is defined legally as a Goods carrying vehicle (over certain set weights) which obviously a motor caravan is not, that they have no way of bringing charges!! The really strange bit is that if that’s the case no-one as got a licence to drive a motor caravan or every-ones full licence covers them for any weight of vehicle that is not a goods vehicle.

I have tried the relevant Transport departments and no-one can give any information as to what class a motor caravan comes under, all initially point to LGV and HGV and when I point out the Definition of HGV/LGV they have no idea of how to actually classify it! I have a string of “I’ll get back to you” and they never have!

Have sent a fax today asking them to point out the relevant legislation to back their claim that 7.5 tonnes is the legal max for motor homes without an LGV or HGV licence.[/b:9eec48f2ca]

I have since been in contact with VOSA, Construction and Use depts, Ministry of transport and several other goverment agencies. Interestingly they all agree with what I say above.

The DVLA are the only body that are "squirming" asked about licencing for large motorhomes and they send a leaflet which clearly states that it is only their interpretation of the law. (ie that 3.5 Tonne and 7.5 tonne [b:9eec48f2ca]goods vehicle[/b:9eec48f2ca] limits apply to motorhomes) I have asked them to quote the actual law that they are trying to expound in their leaflet.

After many "lost enquiries" I sent one registered which trhey had to answer this eventually made its way thru policy and the legal depts.

End result ? they still have not quoted a law that covers motorhomes, campervans etc, all the other goverment depts agree that a motorhome is not a goods vehicle and therefore not restricted in weight/licencing.

George
[/b]

BarryandSue

What a fantastic post, George - VERY far-reaching, and of enormous importance to all of us (whether we drive these larger vehicles or not; we could at some future time). This lack of definition in law has tremendous implications, mostly of great benefit to us and our pastime/lifestyle, and I for one hadn't recognised this chink in the law.

Moderator - parhaps make this a 'Sticky'?

Barry

MandyandDave · Moderator

Great post George,..what however would be the outcome, should Mr.Bishop had been driving a LGV Conversion in outside lane of M/Way.?

Is this where the construction and use clause rears it's ugly head,.after all, a huge percentage of M/H's are built on a LGV chassis?

How would self-bulders such as yourself be aware of such pitfalls, if there is no clear definition regarding Law and the Motorist in the future? I'd hate the thought of investing a huge amount of time, effort and money into a project that I may be able to drive,..or not Confused

GeorgeTelford · Account Deactivated

HGV are not allowed in the outside lane unless directed there by roadworks or a an pfficer of the law.

HGV's must have Tachographs fitted.

It doesnt matter what the Chassis started out as, if it has been reclassified as a motor caravan than its no longer an HGV (an HGV as a pretty good definition and a motorhome does not fit the definition)

Re my bus, it will be below 7.5 tonnes anyway, especially with empty water tanks ! but the axle rating is capable of around 9.2 tonnes Wink

Anonymous

Well researched post on the weight issue George, thank you. Whatever the law, however, I feel we'd all be safer if those with 7500kg+ motorhomes held a Class C licence. As you know, you can't just drive a behemoth as if it were a car!

I am interested another, closely related topic… speed. Do 7500kg+ motorhomes follow the speed limits for buses & coaches, or for goods vehicles? Specifically…

1) Can we do 60, or 70 on the motorway?

2) How about 50 or 60 on dual carriageways?

3) And crucially, 40 or 50 on single carriageways?

It’s not at all clear from the highway code.

Best regards

GeorgeTelford · Account Deactivated

Hi Ben and lizzie.

Its length that counts now, motorcaravan over 3050 kg but under 12 metres (39.37008 ft) long.

Single 60
Dual 60
Motorway 70

From here [url=http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/roadsafe/speed/]devon-cornwall.police speed laws from Section 86 (1) and Schedule 6 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984[/url]

Its all pretty strange really there are people I know with pre 97 licence that should not be allowed anywhere near any vehicle bigger than a smart car, also tho there are people with a post 97 licence who could easily and confidently and Safely handle a large vehicle, basing it on licence date is a nonsense.

Likewise with trailers and caravans there are people that should never be allowed near them, but they are based on a "fluke" of licencing.

A large percentage of people using motorway system should not be, they have no idea, middle lane hogs seem to have no idea of the chaos they cause.

This I suppose is getting a bit off topic, on the original subject re weights unless anyone can come up with something thats a bit more specific about the law (have read the original over and over its seems to support "my case")

George

AutoK

Thank you for all your comments George.
Makes very interesting reading I am truly enlightened!!!

Maybe we shouldn't rock the boat too much else they bring in some bungling leglislation.
The law does seem to be a bit of a dogs breakfast though.
Thanks again George.