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I just read the thread and your initial well typed out statement and felt there was no information being qualified.
Dougie seems to want others to believe in this thread but not anyone or anywhere else. Whilst I can see he feels strongly and that is a good thing I do feel we must question anywhere this data comes from.
If you have checked and feel happy that you are legal, that is great. No complaints of queries from me. I have spoken like others to many on sites who have given strong statements for and against A frames. Me! Well I am not bothered either way as mentioned.
The important point is that it is easy to be lead into anything and then when the crunch comes the law could come down heavily. I have met people who tell of others being asked to detach their A frames. I cannot confirm if this is true or folklore. But if you are the only driver and somewhere in Spain, this will of course be a problem. Arguing with a Spanish policeman that you know the law and he is wrong, will not get you anywhere!
Just good honest debate with unbiased opinion is what is required, nothing more nothing less.
Best regards
Chris
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I just read the thread and your initial well typed out statement and felt there was no information being qualified.
Dougie seems to want others to believe in this thread but not anyone or anywhere else. Whilst I can see he feels strongly and that is a good thing I do feel we must question anywhere this data comes from.
If you have checked and feel happy that you are legal, that is great. No complaints of queries from me. I have spoken like others to many on sites who have given strong statements for and against A frames. Me! Well I am not bothered either way as mentioned.
The important point is that it is easy to be lead into anything and then when the crunch comes the law could come down heavily. I have met people who tell of others being asked to detach their A frames. I cannot confirm if this is true or folklore. But if you are the only driver and somewhere in Spain, this will of course be a problem. Arguing with a Spanish policeman that you know the law and he is wrong, will not get you anywhere!
Just good honest debate with unbiased opinion is what is required, nothing more nothing less.
Best regards
Chris
Hi Chris,
Here is a copy of the letter from Car-a-Tow:-
IMPORTANT UP-DATE - APRIL 2004.
For those who like the idea of towing a car behind a motorhome - there is some very good news. For those who've always been against it - the news is probably not so good.
Over the years there has been a great deal of rumour and misunderstanding concerning the legality of towing frames.
I
As the proprietor of Pro-Tow Frames and designer of the Car-A-Tow Towing Frame System, l, along with stalwart motorhomer Terry Nash of W. Sussex, (I actually think that Terrier Nash would be more appropriate), have finally managed to bring the controversy to a satisfactory conclusion. He has eloquently badgered every government department associated with motor vehicles and trailers, to finally get them to give us some definitive answers.
The Department for Transport have recently stated
"When an A frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the A frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer"- "we believe the use of A frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met':
The D f T expressed concern about a car's braking performance without its engine running. "if the braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required during towing to meet the required braking efficiency"
We are only concerned with small to medium cars, suitable for towing behind a motorhome, generally up to around 800/1100kg kerb weight, and fitted with servo assisted brakes, (vacuum assistance).
Pro-Tow Frames have carried out braking performance tests on a broad range of modern small cars and proven conclusively these cars not only meet the-required performance - 50% braking force in relation to it & maximum - weight - but in most cases far exceed this requirement, without the vacuum servo assistance.
A further point raised, is the ability of the motorhome/car combination to be reversed without operating a manual mechanism. Contrary to common belief, the regulations do not state that braked trailers must be fitted with "auto reverse brakes".
The D f T remind us
"From 1St October 1988 the inertia braking system (overun) is required to allow the trailer to be reversed with the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically"
Although we understand the meaning, it does not actually state `auto reverse brakes, as commonly fated to modem trailers and caravans, but requires a system to enable a trailer to be reversed without the need to manually operate a mechanism.
There are specific regulations concerning this requirement and the Car-A-Tow frame system can meet the requirements as stated in UN-ECE Regulation No. 13, Annexe 12, Page 137, Paragraph 3:4 and 3:5, providing the system is fitted and operated correctly and is in good condition.
The D f T state
"Where technical requirements are mandated then the burden falls to manufacturers to ensure products meet the requirements"
We are happy that the Car-A-Tow system does comply and does meet the requirements as stated, this has been demonstrated to various experts and can be repeated as often as required.
Yet another misunderstanding is that 'trailers' may not be fitted with hydraulic brakes, the correct regulation is that trailers may not use a hydraulic parking brake. Cars are fitted with a mechanical parking brake (handbrake) and providing this handbrake lever can be operated from the ground, i.e. with feet on the ground, this handbrake conforms to trailer requirements and is completely legal.
The D f T have also stated
"The trailer would not have to be tested to establish that it did meet the requirements - no test facilities are available" !!r !!
The D f T has reminded us continually over the years that they do not have the final say. Whilst they have now stated their belief that A frame towing is legal (after years of suggesting it was illegal), they also remind us:
"it is for the courts to make definitive interpretations of the law" Which court we don't know and as of April 2004 we are not aware of a court expressing a view either way.
So,After more than 11 years of batting this backwards and forwards with the D f T (formerly The D of T), where does this leave us ?
* The D f T have confirmed they now believe that towing a car with an A frame is legal.
* We have proof that we can meet trailer braking requirements and performance although
* The D f T have stated that testing is not required and
* The D f T have stated that no test facility is available anyway
* We have a conforming parking brake
* We have a conforming breakaway system(for cars below 1500kg)
* The lighting conforms
* We carry the registration plate of the towing vehicle (covering the rear plate of the car)
That's it then, can we now stop all the nonsense both spoken and printed about the so called `A frame debate ; there is no longer any debate, hook your car on the back and just enjoy your holidays.
Anyone who wishes to challenge any points made here, is invited to contact Alan Bee at Pro-Tow Frames with details of which aspect of A frame towing they consider is not legal.
Regards,
Noel.
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Just good honest debate with unbiased opinion is what is required, nothing more nothing less.
Best regards
Chris
I am all for that,but I don't think that your earlier comment of
''But I can assure you that the outcome was that A frames were illegal. I restate the fact that I am unable to substantiate or corroborate this information so would urge others to find out for themselves.''
fits into that criteria.If you want to make bold,definitive statements like the one above then I suggest you provide some evidence to back it up.You haven't done that and by your own admission are unable to do so. The statement can be disregarded and treated with the contempt it deserves.
The only part of it that makes any sense is ''so would urge others to find out for themselves''.
That is what others have done including me and will continue towing with an A frame until told otherwise by the laws of this country.
Steve
______________________________________________________________ Life is merry with a Welshie and a Kerry
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I have only quickly scanned over the information but see where you and they are coming from.
Interestingly you have done exactly what Dougie has suggested we should not do! That is take notice of the suppliers!
Who knows what the answer is? As mentioned I think it is good to open up this debate and get other peoples opinions - findings! Only when we receive a written statement from the authorities will be totally sure I guess!
Regards
Chris
The following members of MHF thanked G2EWS for this posting
Just good honest debate with unbiased opinion is what is required, nothing more nothing less.
Best regards
Chris
I am all for that,but I don't think that your earlier comment of
''But I can assure you that the outcome was that A frames were illegal. I restate the fact that I am unable to substantiate or corroborate this information so would urge others to find out for themselves.''
fits into that criteria.If you want to make bold,definitive statements like the one above then I suggest you provide some evidence to back it up.You haven't done that and by your own admission are unable to do so. The statement can be disregarded and treated with the contempt it deserves.
The only part of it that makes any sense is ''so would urge others to find out for themselves''.
That is what others have done including me and will continue towing with an A frame until told otherwise by the laws of this country.
Steve
Blimey Steve,
Don't get your knickers in a twist. Not sure I have made a bold statement just tried to open up the debate a bit.
Think you need to sit down with a G & T and cool down!
Remember we are all friends here trying to help one another!
As mentioned, it matters not one jot to me if you have an A frame or a juggernaut. As long as you are happy that is great!
Best regards
Chris
The following members of MHF thanked G2EWS for this posting
I have only quickly scanned over the information but see where you and they are coming from.
Interestingly you have done exactly what Dougie has suggested we should not do! That is take notice of the suppliers!
Who knows what the answer is? As mentioned I think it is good to open up this debate and get other peoples opinions - findings! Only when we receive a written statement from the authorities will be totally sure I guess!
Regards
Chris
Chris,
No I have taken notice of what the D f T have stated, not only to Car-a-Tow (note how far back in 2004!) but to other individual enquirers, however not to me personally but I don't believe Car-a-Tow would risk lying on receiving their letter (whereas Towtal are just being disingenuous)!
Why on earth should there have to be a "written statement", as I said in a previous post why cannot people just take individual responsibility to comply with the regulations we have already been given, applying to all trailers; albeit that means some effort and research but that applies to any law, ignorance is no defence.
Noel.
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Dougie seems to want others to believe in this thread but not anyone or anywhere else
Nope. Dougie actually wants people to examine the research done and to stop quoting anecdotes which in every case I've ever seen (ever), refer to other countries, especially Spain. Overseas legislation, law enforcement and European integration, are all different issues to the debate here on A-frames and UK legislation, but almost always get stirred into the pot. This is neither helpful nor directly relevant.
I repeat what I said earlier. It's not a minefield. There is not a lot of UK legislation in place covering trailers, and even less specifically covering A-Frames. A well-researched and well-debated thread on overseas legislation surrounding A-frames would potentially be a good one, but should in my view be kept well away from this one, to avoid mucho smoko.
Dougie.
______________________________________________________________ I´m playing all the right notes... but not necessarily in the right order.
.
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Hi
Why is this subject being raised again and again? As I see it one chooses either have an 'A' Frame or not. I have had dealings with Towtal and all its short comings eg I was told by them that
'you don't need to have fog lights connected or a warning light or buzzer is not a legal requirement'
I have just had a frame fitted by Chris Cox (a very professional installation) knowing all the risks and for while there is no legal guidance I am happy for the convenience which an 'A' frame offers.
At the NEC I saw an 'A' frame connected to a Toyota which has servo assisted braking (not brake buddy) which meets the issue admirably. If I had not arranged for my KA to be done I would have gone for this setup.
But Chris Cox expressed concern about warranty and interfering with the brakes!
May I suggest that we refrain from pursuing this topic as it could arouse unwanted interested authorities. Least said soonest mended is what I say!
I do not want to cause any upset but I am tired of seeing this subject time and time again - you makes your choice!!
regards
Richard
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