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Sorry folks that I put the What Van reference on the other thread. Would you like me to delete it? Interesting that the Citroen spokesperson did not think the Relay had the problem.
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A few bits put together, the first from a FIAT spokes person in the What Van link
“It's something that can particularly afflict chassis cabs that have had large, badly-specified, bodies mounted on them that turn out to be heavier than the clutch can cope with once they are fully laden.”
Now to the advert that FIAT have been running in most of the magazines lately
'Right from the start, we have worked in close collaboration with some of the most important bodybuilding companies, with their wealth of experience in meeting your needs and desires'.
A bit later in the same advert it states
' 130 Multijet and 160 Multijet power engines with gear ratio's specifically tailored for motorhomes'.
So basically what FIAT are saying in one breath is that the judder problem (in the Whatvan link) is caused by too heavy a load such as a habitat unit fitted to the base chassis.
And in the FIAT advert it says that it has worked with habitat manufacturers so both obviously know what the loading is.
Which version is right, I do not know.
Also can anyone tell me what the 'specifically tailored' gear ratio's are for the X250 as I can not find any information on them and suspect they are no different to the normal panel van Ducato Maxi.
Martin.
Fiats comment about the design of the body on the chassis cab is possibly the most likely explanation of this situation, as I have said in another thread.
Yes Fiat did work with MH manufacturers in the development of the vehicle but possibly a very few manufacturers were involved. I believe that it is more a case of poor design on the part of the converters otherwise the incidence of the clutch judder would have been as high or even higher than the water issue, after all without meaning to offend, driveability is more important than water on the engine. What is needed is someone with the time and wherewithal to create and maintain a fully analytical database to find whether there are any common denominators. We have already found that one chassis combination is fine on one model but judders on a similar model from a different converter.
This is all to do with torsional stiffnes and a bad design or even bad loading will create issues. Even the floor layout can cause an issue, how many vehicles have the water tank, kitchen, leisure battery and water heater all on the same side. Have you ever stopped to imagine how that would react in extreme circumstances? It would put you out of control in an emergency so imagine how it could affect mechanical parts like the clutch.
You will find that the panel van conversion does not have the same issue and that is because it is a full monocoque bodyshell with unbeatable torsional stiffness, whereas a coachbuilt MH has no torsional stiffnes until it has been fully built. If you ever get the chance, look at chassis cabs being delivered to Swift or any other converter, the suspension is so stiff that the chassis can flex completely out of shape when it goes over a bump. Put that flexibility with a poorly stiffened coachbuilt body and you have a recipe for other issues in driving.
Regards,
Gerry
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Sorry folks that I put the What Van reference on the other thread. Would you like me to delete it? Interesting that the Citroen spokesperson did not think the Relay had the problem.
Hi Rowley no need to be sorry sweetie reference fine where it is no need to delete it. I follow all of these threads as probably do a lot of others so we will find it wherever it is hon. Thanks for posting it at all
Gerry, you will find that Andy Stothert's motorcaravan was a panel van conversion. Many other PVC owners have also had problems so this sounds like another Fiat cop-out.
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I've been following Andy Stothert's threads for quite some time and he is utterly convinced that the judder is there irrespective of body type. His own vehicle, which broke a gearbox, is a low weight unit of well under 3000k. He also believes that the 5-speed Ducato is not as bad as the 6-speed, though the judder is there on the former up very steep hills. As for the 6-speed, Andy feels that no vehicle can escape the judder. I managed to reverse up my steep drive without judder (with a 6-speed), just by going slowly with low revs. Andy thinks I either haven't done the test properly, or I work for Fiat.
Anyone can read the great many posts on AOL and will see that matters are becoming very tetchy, as a few insults are starting to pass back and forth between Andy's camp and those who can see there's a problem, but don't feel the judder applies to each and every vehicle, otherwise Fiat would have been inundated with complaints.
Shaun
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I've been following Andy Stothert's threads for quite some time and he is utterly convinced that the judder is there irrespective of body type. His own vehicle, which broke a gearbox, is a low weight unit of well under 3000k. He also believes that the 5-speed Ducato is not as bad as the 6-speed, though the judder is there on the former up very steep hills. As for the 6-speed, Andy feels that no vehicle can escape the judder. I managed to reverse up my steep drive without judder (with a 6-speed), just by going slowly with low revs. Andy thinks I either haven't done the test properly, or I work for Fiat.
Anyone can read the great many posts on AOL and will see that matters are becoming very tetchy, as a few insults are starting to pass back and forth between Andy's camp and those who can see there's a problem, but don't feel the judder applies to each and every vehicle, otherwise Fiat would have been inundated with complaints.
Shaun
Shaun,
The reason that I will not contribute to Andy Stothert's campaign is exactly as you have shown. He is of the belief that all vehicles suffer clutch judder and that if yours does not then you must be lying. If this issue is as big as he claims, why is there never a mention of clutch judder on any of the reports in his magazine?
Gerry
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There are also prophets of doom over there, who clearly have crystal balls; apparently, those of us with new Ducatos should be aware that a great many people won't touch them with a bargepole and that secondhand values will plummet. I shouldn't have wasted my time in saying that no-one can say what will happen to any secondhand market and that many of their Ducato-slagging posts are an insult to those of us who have bought one and are eminently happy with it. All I got back was the usual terse or childish responses.
It seems to me that what started out as a legitimate campaign to have Fiat acknowledge and rectify juddering problems, has descended into a mission seemingly hell-bent on making Ducato sales suffer and for secondhand values to take a big hit.
Shaun
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Does anyone know if the automatic gearbox version judders, or is it just the manual?
Annsman,
I have not heard any reports of the automatic but in view of the fact that it is a totally different design and method of clutch engagement it is unlikely to have an issue.
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