Gearbox, Renault Master 98-01 Forums

Hedge

Probably too obscure this one, but does anyone know if this early verson of the transverse engined Master --(which used FIAT Sofim engines)--also used the Ducato/Boxer/Relay gearbox?

I suppose I could look underneath, but when have you ever seen the two parked together ???

nobbythehobby

Interesting one that - unfortunately I don't have the definitive answer! I would be very surprised if it was not the Fiat gearbox as this powerplant was used as a stopgap by Renault until their 2.5 Common Rail came on line. Even if it was the Fiat box, they used a floor shifter in all the 2.8's rather than a fascia mount.

I think I know where you're coming from though, so the following may be of use to you. There are 4 user reports of this van in Car Survey and 3 of them had gearbox failures! Not an impressive average. http://www.carsurvey.org/model_Renault_Master.html
None of these mention 5th gear failure.

Even if the Renault box is fitted, the news may not be any better. My neighbour has a 2003 2.5 Renault Master Autocruise with the Renault box and he had a serious gearbox failure at 20000 miles. There had apparently been very little oil in from manufacture.

There is a review of a Renault 2.8 motorhome in the January 2002 issue of MMM but I cannot see mention of the source of the gearbox.

Nobby

Hedge

Well sussed Nobby!.....

It was the carsurvey report that started me. I have to agree with you, it's almost certainly the same box.......which wasn't that clever a unit when it started life in the Citroen CX, 30+ yrs back.

Shame, because they are a far superior drive to the Sevel van.

So i'm stumped for a new van now, unless I create my own..........New Iveco Daily, but with the older pre-common rail 2.8 TD???

I refuse to be a common-rail victim. It's a flawed system,& repairs are a total rip-off.
If only Europe had a Federal Trades Commission, like the USA

BTW:- did you know there is a Renault agent in Normandie called 'Crapart'...(sic).........maybe he designed the Velsatis?
Never mind the second-hand dealer 'Jacques Lemonier'........

trig

Hello Hedge,

Why is the common rail system flawed?

trig

nobbythehobby

I as waiting for somebody else to ask that but it doesn't look as though an answer from Hedge is imminent.

For the potential motorhome buyers ( and even some existing ones) who may be contemplating buying a MH with a 'common rail' diesel engine I would like to point out the following:

Common rail was developed jointly I believe by Mercedes Benz and Fiat both of whom use it in all their production diesel engines. Fiat common rail diesel engines are so highly regarded that some Japanese car manufacturers fit them in their models.

In addition, car giants, BMW, Peugeot/Citroen, Ford and Renault all supply common rail diesel engines as standard. Japanese car manufacturers supply them also including Honda whose engine building is probably peerless.

I believe I am right in thinking that the Volkswagen Group are the only major company who do not use common rail, opting for their own excellent PD system.

Quite apart from performance and economy, the refinement and noise levels of common rail diesel engines is exemplary.

Potential common rail diesel buyers should not in any way be put off making a purchase by the above unsubstantiated comment. On the contrary, a common rail diesel engine is desirable and represents the present industry standard.

Nobby

Hedge · Last edited by Hedge on Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total

Apologies for the delay in replying

Nobby, I would love a new 3.0 litre Daily ...but....
My comments were based on :-
1) what I hear through the motor trade (even though I'm retired I still have the contacts),
2) a big expose in a French camper mag a couple of years ago
3) the experiences of 3 people who had the pump body crack .. 2 of them Peugeot HDI cars (see 5 below)
4) the cost of replacing the stop valve which instead of being easily removed with a spanner, is now cunningly buried in the pump body requiring removal of said pump, strip, replace valve, rebuild, & refit.........£600 was the bill I was shown for a Merc 311. 'Normal' I'm told.
5) the research commisioned (why outside?) by Daimler-Chrysler into why with their 5 cylinder engine there can be at certain revs a back pressure wave strong enough to shatter the pump body...
.I have to admit here that I did struggle with my (very) limited German.
(No mention of 4 cyl. engines though.....seems odd)

The system used by VW is the one that has been used in many trucks since the late 90's. Each cylinder has its own pump/ injector unit driven mechanically off a cam. In has proved to be more reliable than common rail.......but units do fail once in a while......at about £700,each.

As I said, I really would like a new van, but I don't like being used as a developement guinea pig without my permission.........& being heavily charged for the 'priviledge' on top I consider morally obscene.

But I'm just a sceptic who spent too long in the trade, so best to ignore me........ (who hates the idea of breaking down abroad with the 'wrong' engine).

It's another lovely day boys & girls...enjoy

nobbythehobby

Hi Hedge, Thanks for replying - thought you'd disappeared.

You sound like Chicken Licken waiting for the sky to fall in on you.

There are many millions of common rail diesel engines in the world performing quite happily and a few anecdotal stories such as you have related hardly makes a scientific case. I do accept though that production techniques on CR components will improve over time as knowledge is gained but that is true of anything. It makes a far more compelling reason not to buy a particular engine because it's cambelt may break, as many in fact do, necessitating expensive repairs. Many of the new common rail diesels now use chain cam rather than cambelt which surely offers a more reliable case.

Times change and so does technology. Many old hands in the motor trade will still recommend that you change synthetic oil every 6000 miles because that's 'what they have always done' but it is totally unnecessary. I met an old hand yesterday working on an Audi A4 who said, "Load of rubbish. Wouldn't thank you for one." ( Hmmm!! - can't beat the old Anglia can you.)

I have a good friend who is a Motor Trader. He loves Common Rail diesel, sells them in huge numbers, has very little cause to repair them and uses a common rail BMW car and a Common rail Fiat motorhome for his own private transport.

Incidentally, I have an old 110000 mile Mondeo with an old tech' Tdi engine and I love it to bits. Let's be honest though, it can't hold a candle to the late model with the Tdci engine and is a clear indication of how things have moved on despite the occasional mechanical failure.

With regard to your comments about VW Group diesels, if you research 'Honest John', you will see he is somewhat sceptical about the long term reliability of their engines. You can't win can you!

Just buy one like the rest of us who are lucky enough and stop worrying. The refinement is worth it.

Yep, it's a lovely day here too - just enjoying a bit of shade while I do this.

Happy hunting,

Nobby

trig

Well I've read the replies and am not convinced that the common rail system can be described as flawed. Presumably the Bosch engineers used sound engineering principles when they designed the high pressure fuel pump for the common rail. That it now has to be part stripped is unfortunate cost wise, but then again, the repairer's hourly labour charge is what makes the repair expensive or not so expensive.

Personally, if I was going to choose a van primarily for reliability, I would go for the LDV Convoy with the Transit engine and box, a cart spring at each corner, I beam front axle, kingpins on tapered needle rollers ( and a grease gun). With the only engine related live electrical feed being to the fuel cut off solenoid, I know which vehicle and type of engine I prefer to have when I'm 50 miles from nowhere.

Regards trig

Hedge

Truce? Somewhere between Nobby's 'press releases' Smile

& my scepticism lies the........ I was going to say..... 'hapless owner'.........but I wont.

Sorry Trig, but unless the 2.5 Tranny lump in the LDV has a Lucas-CAV pump, it will be a pre-common rail 'drive-by-wire' Bosch job. Take-me-to-the-dealer electronics which did little for emission control. .......even with EGR.

The newer 2.4 Ford engine (in the LDV, & initially the Transit) had the same system......... Ford publicity dept. churned out an somewhat anti common rail press release at the new Transit's launch. Now of course it has 'second generation' common rail.

Tis a lovely day again people