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Thanks for all the above info which I've now had time to look at in some depth. I'll let you have a summary of my thoughts on fixed cylinders in due course which I may add to my original post (or would you like to submit a seperate article perhaps?). One last (I hope!) question first though:
You mention butane above; is autogas a mixture of propane of butane? And is the mix the same throughout Europe (all year) or does it tend to be more (or pure) butane the further south you go?
Ray
______________________________________________________________ Not all who wander are lost - J R Tolkien
Various threads about gas in general, and how to cope while in Europe in particular, have lead me to try and bring together our experience in dealing with gas supplies in the belief it may help other members.
When we bought our current left-hooker we decided from the outset that our touring would be mainly in Europe and typically for 2 - 3 months per tour although it has sometimes been more (but never less!). What follows was very much dictated by our need to be able to buy supplies whenever needed no matter where we were; this is far from the only way of dealing with gas supplies and solutions depend very much on what you are trying to achieve and your starting point (e.g. our motorhome was already jetted for 30mBar – see below). The size of your gas locker can also significantly restrict the cylinders you can carry.
We had no option but to start from scratch - the previous owner of our Chausson, imported from Germany, had cut off the regulator and connected a piece of rubber hose directly to the copper pipe (serving our appliances) using just a jubilee clip. Not even a regulator in sight, just an empty German cylinder in the fairly large gas locker.
We considered fixed Gaslow cylinders; there's a significant investment up front to set against the cheaper LPG, and a very restricted choice of refilling points in Spain. At the current 1€/Kg for propane in Spain you can buy a lot of gas for the cost of installing fixed cylinders; if you only tour in the UK the sums may be different and there are, I'm told, a good network of filling stations; equally if you can't, or don't want to lift cylinders about, it may be an option – it's your money! We decided against this option and went for the more common choice of 'off the shelf' cylinders.
First decision - butane or propane was a no-brainer for us as we were likely to out when the weather was colder and butane doesn't become gas as the temperature heads towards freezing. So propane it was.
Second decision was the regulator. For everyone this is dictated by the jets fitted to the appliances in our motorhomes. Older vehicles will (most likely) either be jetted for propane at 37mBar or butane at 28mBar; newer vehicles will be jetted at 30mBar for both propane and butane. Ours had a large label in the gas locker saying 30mBar which was rather fortunate as it gives greater options. Be careful here as there are other options e.g. 50mBar systems.
So, having acquired a Gaslow 30mBar regulator, it needed fitting to the copper pipe; it is NOT good practice to connect using just a rubber hose and a jubilee clip - a proper terminator is needed for the copper pipe and the low pressure 'rubber' hose is then connected to that with the other end connected to the outlet side of the regulator (which should have a proper termination to take rubber hose).
Next came a Gaslow automatic change-over head which connects to two gas bottles, enabling the user to select which bottle the gas should be taken from initially and will then change to the other bottle when the first bottle is empty. The head connects directly to the inlet side of regulator and to the cylinders using high pressure hoses.
Regulator and change-over head Calor screw fitting on high pressure hose
We have 'flexible' stainless steel high pressure hoses from Gaslow to connect to our cylinders. These hoses terminate in a standard 'Calor' fitting i.e. they will connect directly to the small Calor Butane cylinders. Although these hoses are also available with a Calor propane fitting we chose the butane option as they can then be connected to a wide variety of Gaslow adaptors (including ones for Calor propane and Camping Gaz). These adaptors enable the use of a wide variety cylinders, including ones purchased elsewhere in Europe - we bought a selection of adaptors and they have served us well over the past 5 years.
If you are changing from the old 'rubber' hoses to the new stainless steel ones be warned that the latter are not as flexible as their predecessors and you may require a slightly longer length to accommodate a bigger radius curve.
It should be noted here that some regular replacement is required of flexible hoses and the washers used to connect the various parts together. The stainless steel high pressure hoses are rated for 20 years (no less than they should be at the price!) but their 'rubber' alternatives have a much shorter life as do the rubber connecting washers. For our part, 2 - 3 years is the life of these items, not forgetting the low pressure hose between the regulator and the copper pipework. Not a bad idea either to check that all joints remain tightly screwed, say annually. Better to be safe than sorry. Where joints have been made for the first time, test with leak detecting spray that you can buy from plumbers merchants - it's cheap, so use Fairy liquid at your peril if you must!
Only you know how competent you are to undertake work on gas in your motorhome. If you feel uneasy about it, get your dealer to do it - there's potentially a big downside if you get it wrong. In the worst case scenario, your insurers could refuse a claim for a motorhome destroyed by fire.
Our first cylinder for travel to Europe was a 907 Camping Gaz for the simple reason that we could buy it in the UK to take with us while we decided upon which French cylinder to adopt. Camping Gaz is expensive by comparison with other gas but it's readily available everywhere, including throughout Spain (see below). Once in France we decided upon a 5 Kg. propane Le Cube and brought one of our Gaslow adaptors into service. Gas in France is available everywhere, especially from garage forecourts and there is a multitude of brands/cylinder types. Initial deposits for cylinders are much lower than in the UK - our latest cylinder (read on) required only a 10€ deposit. The current price (Sept 2009) for Le Cube refills is about 15€ for either 5 Kg propane or 6 Kg butane. Note that French cylinders do not have different fittings for butane and propane as in the UK so be sure you are buying the correct gas.
Onwards now to Spain where the choice of cylinder is somewhat limited although the gas is cheap because it's subsidised. Repsol is the most widely available gas in Spain but you have to sign a contract which involves a home inspection; bottles are however, on sale in flea markets, from other motorhomers and assorted unofficial sources. The alternative, our choice, was a Cepsa propane cylinder holding 11 Kg (current refill price 11€). Our 'jumbo' Gaslow adaptor was now pressed into service - gas bottles in Spain, except Camping Gaz, have the same fitting whether propane or butane, Cepsa or Repsol, so again, be sure of what you are buying.
Cepsa cylinder …. and its gas fitting
Various regions of Spain have very differing laws about sales of gas and Cepsa is totally absent in some regions including Catalonia; in these regions Repsol will usually only be available from Repsol depots or for home delivery. In other regions, for example Andalucia and Navarra, Cepsa is widely available from camp sites, garages and Cepsa depots. This is an irritation but we've learned to manage our gas supplies to cope i.e. always enter Spain with a good supply of French gas. Typically we use about 5 Kg/month, including the BBQ, so it's not really a problem. Note that you will now see Repsol cylinders on sale in France - the top 'handles' is different to the ones in Spain (although the gas fitting is the same) and I am told they can be exchanged in Spain.
The Le Cube/Cepsa propane arrangement served us well until this autumn when we discovered a 10 Kg 'own brand' cylinder of propane in Intermarché with a standard Calor butane fitting as above. The Gaslow adaptor serving the Le Cube was removed and the Cube traded in for the new cylinder which was then screwed directly onto the low pressure hose. Why change? 10 Kg means less frequent cylinder replenishment and refills cost about 17.50€ against the 15€ for the 5 Kg Le Cube.
Intermarché cylinder …. and its gas fitting
Hopefully this latest arrangement will serve us well for the foreseeable future and, if we do any short tours in the UK, we can just screw Gaslow propane adaptors onto the existing low pressure pipes and put Calor propane cylinders into the gas locker.
Ray
Last edited by rayhook on Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total ______________________________________________________________ Not all who wander are lost - J R Tolkien
Thanks for that - you will see that I've amended my above post (which is awaiting some pictures to be added by Zebedee).
Strange the top 'handles' are different and I wonder if the laws in France demand more protection for the gas fitting than the laws in Spain. (For those who haven't seen Repsol cylinders, the Spanish ones just have a couple of handles on the shoulders, leaving the gas fitting vulnerable, whereas the French ones have a top arrangement much like the Calor 'cage' surrounding the gas fitting).
Thanks for your input.
Ray
______________________________________________________________ Not all who wander are lost - J R Tolkien
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