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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What is the maximum weight any rigid vehicle can be with only two axles?

18 Ton, above that it must have a third axle

What is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category C licence?

The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is not carrying passengers under PCV regs)

What is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category D licence?

The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is designed to carry passengers under PCV regs) The holder may also drive a purpose built bendi-bus articulated vehicle as it is considered to be one unit.

The maximum design weight of a bus must be stated on the vehicle; The ULW must be written on the side of the vehicle on the near side in front of the back wheel arch. The carrying capacity must be stated on the vehicle, to include the seating capacity and standing capacity. On double decker vehicles the seating capacity is stated as upper and lower. Standing is not permitted in the upper deck as this would affect the stability of the vehicle. The seating capacity of a bus is governed by weight and not volume, 15 people equals 1 ton. The luggage space is calculated and factored in with the seating capacity, added to the ULW to determine the MAM. Category D licence holders are permitted to drive any size of bus which is approved by the UK government for use on our roads.

If a PCV driver is caught with too many people on their vehicle they will be prosecuted in the same way as a HGV driver would be prosecuted for overloading their vehicle, or a car driver would be prosecuted for over loading their car.

A category D1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle with upto 16 passengers. As stated before any rigid vehicle can be upto 18 ton on 2 axles, if it is over 18 ton it must have 3 axles.

A category C1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle not designed to carry passengers under PCV regs upto 7.5 ton

As stated category D vehicles are not restricted by MAM, however :D

They are restricted by seating capacity; thus a vehicle with seating for 16 passengers allows a payload of just over 1 ton [15 people = 1 ton], if you add luggage you might get away with a payload of 2 tons.

Now considering the fact that pre 1997 licences permitted drivers to drive;

A car upto 3.5 ton

A vehicle [goods vehicle] upto 7.5 ton

A bus upto 16 seats [which actually equates to about 7 ton]

It would take a very broad interpretation of the legislation to say that a bus which is designed to carry people rather than "goods" should need to weigh more than 7 ton, the company I drive for has a 17 seater transit which has a MAM of 6.9 ton.

If a minibus was 18 ton it would have to be filled with 11 tons of something other than people. And I would argue that the extra weight would have to be cargo of some description which would make it a "goods vehicle".

If you have a vehicle with 7 tons of people and 11 tons of cargo, I would say that was a dual purpose vehicle under the road traffic act, rather than a bus?
 

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Hi All

Or with the law as it stands at the moment a Motorhome of any weight at all, whethor a pre or post 97 Licence. The police tend to avoid mtorhomes other than cursory checks. And as a Judge said on appeal recently the law as turned a blind eye to the size irregularoties for years.

George
 

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Hi Jonathon


As far as cars go I am not interested (not being rude honest, I really am not interested in car definitions), what I have alluded to several times are motor caravans.

Min of Transport/VOSA definition basically dont laugh they look and see if any reasonable person would think it was, loosely based on C&U, the following is from a fax From VOSA Vehicle Inspectorate division.

"motor caravan" means a motor vehicle (not being a living van) which is constructed or adapted to carry passengers and their effecta and which contains as permenantly installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accomodation for its users; motor caravans are not classed as goods vehicles for MOT test purposes and therefore in Class IV or V depending on their seating capacity, but regardless of their size and weight

"living van" means a vehicle, whethor mechanically propelled or not, which is used as a livinjg accomodation by one or more persons, and which is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle; Living vans are classed as goods vehicles and depending on their weight are either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are subject to HGV Plating and testing.

I will had this to the weights thread it throws what VOSA said earlier into doubt especially re the people living in and "trading from" (without goods)

George
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Why not answer the question?

You are legally permitted to drive a Car with a B licence, what is the legal definition of a Car? That definition will tell you what you CAN legally drive on a B licence.

What can you legally drive on a car licence?

ie Define a car.


You are reading into the legislation what you want to read.

There is no driving licence category for motorhomes or motor caravans.

The basic legal prescedent of the pre 1997 driving licence is that the holder is issued with B D1 C1

B is a vehicle upto 3.5t
D1 and C1 are vehicles upto 7.5t (based on cargo carried or seating capacity.)

You have jumped on the fact that it DOESNT say you CANT drive a motorhome over 7.5t as it doesnt actually have the words motorhome or motorcaravan in the legislation.

You insist that a motorhome is not a "goods vehicle" as it does not carry goods for hire and reward.

If you are limited to a vehicle upto 7.5t on the basis of the D1 and C1 licence what makes you presume you can drive a motorhome regardless of weight.

Don't quote construction and use, they don't issue driving licences.
 

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Hi Jon

You are reading what DVLA say, unfortunately (fortunately?) they cannot quote the law which backs this up Re motorhomes not cars.

If you can show, where a motorhome is restricted by weight.

Why can I not quote construction and use? DVLA specifically direct you to Marsham and Marsham disagree with DVLA.

Marsham say that like minibuses a motorhome is not restricted by weight, DVLA agree that a minbus could legally be up to 16 Tonnes single axle and be driven on the same licence that restricts you to 7.5 tonnes or the one restricting you to 3.5 tonnes, they just dont accept that motorhomes are, but the legislation does not back them up.

When the only case went to court it was abandoned after 3 adjournments by the CPS, they say through lack of evidence, but that is nonsence all the evidence is still on file, Driver statement, camera evidence and plod on the ground.

Ring them, I did and ask under what law the case was being tried, if you look it up it refers to goods vehicles. get the definitions of a goods vehicles from C&U (this dept is refered to in the legislation as the people responsible for defining vehicles) Do that and you will see that they could not proceed as there was no law to prosecute the driver under.

Over to you

George
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes but if you read the OP, as you are aware the DVLA cannot state law.

The legal precedent of the pre 1997 licence is a vehicle upto 7.5t

If you do the maths there is no need for a 16 seat vehicle to weigh more than 7.5t,

Why do you thinkg you are limited to 16 seats on a D1 licence?

Why not 19 or 23 or 25??

16 is the magic number, that is the number of people you can carry along with reasonable personal luggage in a vehicle within 7.5t

The current DVLA staff "don't know" or have forgotten the relationship between seating, weight and vehicle size.

As I said, Why would you need a 16 seat passenger vehicle not used to carry "goods" which weighs more than 7.5t??

The D1 licence does not state MAM as it states seating capacity. Bus licence categories are based on seating as that is how a driver interprets the loading of the vehicle.

A motorhome is not restricted by weight, you can have a motorhome as big as you want. It does not mean you can drive it on a licence which relates to a "car"

The definition of which you still do not want to look at.
 

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Hi Jonathon

I posted that the DVLA statements are not law ages back when people were quoting the DVLA info. That is why I spent about 4 months exchanging Phone calls and faxes with the DVLA's Legal Dept. They quoted the 99 size part, I sent back the reference to the earlier legislation, they said it was superceded by 99 I countered with 99 does not supercede in that area and were it does supercede, it is stated clearly at the beginning.

DVLA are basing their stance on legislation which refers clearly to Goods vehicles, they originally claimed C&U agreed that a motohome was a goods vehicle, after I presented the fact that Mearsham actually disagreed the DVLA then came out with, we are not here to give legal advice, although they had tried and failed over a 4 month period to back their claims.

Pls Jonathon stop quoting DVLA dross and read the legioslation.

George
 

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Excuse me for jumping in. the way I see it is this.
If you aquire a 7.5 tonne GVW goods vehicle,and then proceed and convert it to a "MOTORCARVAN" ,that vehicle is no longer a 7.5 goods vehicle it is a "MOTORCARAVAN". It does not carry or is able to carry goods any more.
Same applies if you do the same with a bus or coach,once converted it is a "MOTORCARAVAN". Unable to carry fare paying passengers any more.

If it is a "MOTORCARAVAN" it is a class 4 MOT
See-:VOSA, MOT Test: Fees and Appeals.

All of our vehicles started off as commercial bases they just ended up as "MOTORCARAVANS" which takes the "commercial" out of the equation.
So the bottom line is, if it is a "MOTORCARAVAN" you can drive it on a car licence :wink:

One proviso is you must not exceed the gross weight of the vehicle regardless :lol: And it must be registered as a "MOTORCARAVAN" :roll:
I await being shot down on this :eek:


Crackpot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Where does it say you can drive any size of vehicle on a car licence?

What is the legal definition of a car?

N.B. C1 is not a car.

If you de plate a 10 ton lorry to 7.5t you can drive it on a C1 licence,

But what about a vehicle which weighs 9 ton EMPTY, you can't derate that to less than 7.5t

Take a walk around your local bus station, have a look at the weight on the side of these vehicles. ULW 10500 KG is typical for a double decker bus or a coach. thats 10.5 ton Unladen!

Are we suggesting that if you convert that into a motorhome you can drive a 10.5 ton vehicle on a "car" licence?
 

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I think you are missing the point! A "MOTORCARAVAN" is not a "GOODS"vehicle or a PSV,HGV,LGV or what ever they are calling them these days. You can drive a double decker bus if it has been converted to a "MOTORCARAVAN" on a car licence. Stop thinking about the category the vehicle "WAS" think what category the vehicle "IS" if it has been converted to "MOTORCARAVAN" that is what it "IS".
I will give you a "FACT" If you went and bought a brand new HGV/LGV tractor unit and run it on trade plates,without the fifth wheel coupling fitted, you could drive this on a car licence. Why, because it is not registered as a goods vehicle and there is no feasible way you could carry goods on or in it :lol:
I know it is confusing, but you have to relate to what the vehicle "IS"not what it "WAS"

HTH

Crackpot
 

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Hi Crackpot

Absolutely spot on.

Jonathon according to your version a minibus over 7.5 tonnes cannot be driven, but the law disagree's and the local traffic police dept have just confirmed weight not an issue minibus any weight can be driven on car licence. ring you local nick the police have a traffic law chappy on 24/7 to answer patrols queries.

George
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I agree that a motor home or caravan is not a HGV LGV or PCV I never said it was!

Simply this;

A car licence category B has a weight restriction of 3.5t and always has done. There are a list of exceptions to this stated in legislation, motorhomes are not covered by those exceptions.


Re D1 that is the DVLA's interpretation of the law, which you have already stated cannot be relied upon, the police go by what the DVLA say.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I will give you a "FACT" If you went and bought a brand new HGV/LGV tractor unit and run it on trade plates,without the fifth wheel coupling fitted, you could drive this on a car licence. Why, because it is not registered as a goods vehicle and there is no feasible way you could carry goods on or in it.
I think you will find that a chassis cab or tractor unit has a MAM of less than 7.5t so can be driven on a C1 licence.

It may be over 3.5t so a B category licence holder may not be able to drive it.

A car licence is category B !!!!!!

weight not an issue minibus any weight can be driven on car licence
Not on a B licence, which is the legal definition of a car licence. you are limited to 4.25t
 

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Hi Jonathon

a Motorhome is now a car ? BTW follow this through and you will see why I am totally not interested in the car size issue

so no motorhome can be over 3.5 tonnes?

Or is it a C when you feel like it and limited to 7.5 Tonnes ?

But then what about the over 7.5 Tonne American motorhomes, what licence do you need to drive them ?

An HGV you may say but then if its HGV as yourself and the DVLA mistakenly believe it is (but the law disagree's)

The following are totally at odds with it being HGV

1. needs a tachograph because its now HGV (according to DVLA) and I have checked this it is not on the exempted from tacho's list.

2. it should not be driven in 3rd lane of motorway, yet they can be, ask your local cop shop, the only court case they gave up

3. it would need fitting with a speed limiter to 56 MPH max

4. it would Need HGV plating (MOT)

there is more, but have a chew on that for now.

The DVLA cannot explain the above away, can you? and please quote the Legislation that says it wrong.

BTW as I say VOSA, THe Ministry of Transport, construction and Use and te legislation all agree on the above. DVLA are the only ones who think differently, but strangely cannot produce any law to back there case. CPS eventually gave up on the only case that ever nearly got heard in court.

George
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
A car licence allows the driver to drive a vehicle upto 3.5t end of story.


I don't need to prove that a large motorhome is an HGV LGV PCV or any other vehicle.

If it wieghts more than 3.5t its not a car, therefor cannot be driven on a car licence. It is not covered by the exceptions listed in the legislation.

As for tachographs, I can drive a HGV or PCV (less than 10 seats) for social purposes without a tachograph.

A private HGV does not require a tachograph under the regs.

Speed limiters relate to the age of the vehicle, or the date of it's first use. It would be upto VOSA to decide if a speed limiter is required.

The MOT class has no bearing on the driving licence category.
 

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red_dragon_bus said:
A car licence category B has a weight restriction of 3.5t and always has done. There are a list of exceptions to this stated in legislation, motorhomes are not covered by those exceptions.
If you can find anything regarding Motorcaravans on your licence or on the DVLA site your a good un! :lol: Look at the VOSA site, MOTORCARAVANS are classed as class 4 MOT. You are still not looking at this situation as "MOTORCARAVAN", ignore all other definitions. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this, I'm off, I've a bus to catch. :lol: :lol:

Crackpot.

Ps, check the wording= Motorcaravan, nothing else will do. :wink:
 

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Hi Jon

re Speed limiters VOSA have already decided a Motorhome is NOT an HGV if it were it would require a speed limiter.


end of story ? Obviously not a car licence as you put it is not the end, I have only ever passed the car test, but my licence entitles me to drive even by your and the DVLA's admission 7.5 tonnes. but with the minbus it can be any weight at all (allowing for axle legal max's)

Private HGV is defined as an HGV for private purposes but a motorhome does not fit the definition of HGV according to the Goverment dept that the Legislation says decides ! ergo a Motorhome cannot be an HGV private or otherwise.

Not as easy or cut and dried as you think, if DVLA cannot show the legislation, they keep repeating the same things which the law does nt agree with.

George
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
If you passed you car test after 1997 you will not automatically be granted a C1 and D1 licence.

If you were lucky enough to sit your test before 1997 well done, they've got wise to that one :lol: :lol:



Back to the OP, take a look at the EU integration of drivers licence proposals, they state that C1 and D1 are comparable vehicles and are proposing issuing C1 and D1 together when sitting either test.

As I said the D1 licence was meant to be upto 7.5t, DVLA seem to have lost the plot 8)
 
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