[88724]

Hi All

Or with the law as it stands at the moment a Motorhome of any weight at all, whethor a pre or post 97 Licence. The police tend to avoid mtorhomes other than cursory checks. And as a Judge said on appeal recently the law as turned a blind eye to the size irregularoties for years.

George

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon


As far as cars go I am not interested (not being rude honest, I really am not interested in car definitions), what I have alluded to several times are motor caravans.

Min of Transport/VOSA definition basically dont laugh they look and see if any reasonable person would think it was, loosely based on C&U, the following is from a fax From VOSA Vehicle Inspectorate division.

"motor caravan" means a motor vehicle (not being a living van) which is constructed or adapted to carry passengers and their effecta and which contains as permenantly installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accomodation for its users; motor caravans are not classed as goods vehicles for MOT test purposes and therefore in Class IV or V depending on their seating capacity, but regardless of their size and weight

"living van" means a vehicle, whethor mechanically propelled or not, which is used as a livinjg accomodation by one or more persons, and which is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle; Living vans are classed as goods vehicles and depending on their weight are either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are subject to HGV Plating and testing.

I will had this to the weights thread it throws what VOSA said earlier into doubt especially re the people living in and "trading from" (without goods)

George

 

[88724]

Hi Jon

You are reading what DVLA say, unfortunately (fortunately?) they cannot quote the law which backs this up Re motorhomes not cars.

If you can show, where a motorhome is restricted by weight.

Why can I not quote construction and use? DVLA specifically direct you to Marsham and Marsham disagree with DVLA.

Marsham say that like minibuses a motorhome is not restricted by weight, DVLA agree that a minbus could legally be up to 16 Tonnes single axle and be driven on the same licence that restricts you to 7.5 tonnes or the one restricting you to 3.5 tonnes, they just dont accept that motorhomes are, but the legislation does not back them up.

When the only case went to court it was abandoned after 3 adjournments by the CPS, they say through lack of evidence, but that is nonsence all the evidence is still on file, Driver statement, camera evidence and plod on the ground.

Ring them, I did and ask under what law the case was being tried, if you look it up it refers to goods vehicles. get the definitions of a goods vehicles from C&U (this dept is refered to in the legislation as the people responsible for defining vehicles) Do that and you will see that they could not proceed as there was no law to prosecute the driver under.

Over to you

George

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

I posted that the DVLA statements are not law ages back when people were quoting the DVLA info. That is why I spent about 4 months exchanging Phone calls and faxes with the DVLA's Legal Dept. They quoted the 99 size part, I sent back the reference to the earlier legislation, they said it was superceded by 99 I countered with 99 does not supercede in that area and were it does supercede, it is stated clearly at the beginning.

DVLA are basing their stance on legislation which refers clearly to Goods vehicles, they originally claimed C&U agreed that a motohome was a goods vehicle, after I presented the fact that Mearsham actually disagreed the DVLA then came out with, we are not here to give legal advice, although they had tried and failed over a 4 month period to back their claims.

Pls Jonathon stop quoting DVLA dross and read the legioslation.

George

 

[88724]

Hi Crackpot

Absolutely spot on.

Jonathon according to your version a minibus over 7.5 tonnes cannot be driven, but the law disagree's and the local traffic police dept have just confirmed weight not an issue minibus any weight can be driven on car licence. ring you local nick the police have a traffic law chappy on 24/7 to answer patrols queries.

George

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

a Motorhome is now a car ? BTW follow this through and you will see why I am totally not interested in the car size issue

so no motorhome can be over 3.5 tonnes?

Or is it a C when you feel like it and limited to 7.5 Tonnes ?

But then what about the over 7.5 Tonne American motorhomes, what licence do you need to drive them ?

An HGV you may say but then if its HGV as yourself and the DVLA mistakenly believe it is (but the law disagree's)

The following are totally at odds with it being HGV

1. needs a tachograph because its now HGV (according to DVLA) and I have checked this it is not on the exempted from tacho's list.

2. it should not be driven in 3rd lane of motorway, yet they can be, ask your local cop shop, the only court case they gave up

3. it would need fitting with a speed limiter to 56 MPH max

4. it would Need HGV plating (MOT)

there is more, but have a chew on that for now.

The DVLA cannot explain the above away, can you? and please quote the Legislation that says it wrong.

BTW as I say VOSA, THe Ministry of Transport, construction and Use and te legislation all agree on the above. DVLA are the only ones who think differently, but strangely cannot produce any law to back there case. CPS eventually gave up on the only case that ever nearly got heard in court.

George

 

[88724]

Hi Jon

re Speed limiters VOSA have already decided a Motorhome is NOT an HGV if it were it would require a speed limiter.


end of story ? Obviously not a car licence as you put it is not the end, I have only ever passed the car test, but my licence entitles me to drive even by your and the DVLA's admission 7.5 tonnes. but with the minbus it can be any weight at all (allowing for axle legal max's)

Private HGV is defined as an HGV for private purposes but a motorhome does not fit the definition of HGV according to the Goverment dept that the Legislation says decides ! ergo a Motorhome cannot be an HGV private or otherwise.

Not as easy or cut and dried as you think, if DVLA cannot show the legislation, they keep repeating the same things which the law does nt agree with.

George

 

[88724]

Hi

DVLA do say 7.5 Tonnes, but they are ignoring the law as it is written, They are contradicting Construction and Use who say Motorhomes are not weight restricted, the very people they (DVLA) tell you to consult.

Note at the bottom of there webpage it says its only there opinion

The Local police traffic legal dept, also agree that they cant find any law to prosecute you under.

Not sure at all how you would stand abroad though, usually if its legal in your home country its legal throughout Europe. But there are several areas where this isnt strictly true. Licencing may be one of them, abroad the law is much clearer and over 7.5 Tonnes you need a higher licence, but here again I know of many people who have very large American motorhomes, they have been pulled up bith here and abroad, their licence as never been called into question.

Jonathon

Maybe their intent was that it would be limited to 7.4 tonnes on minibuses but like the motorhome it is not, for a minibus its very clear because it as its own category and is clearly defined, According to Marsham construction and Use dept the motorhome is the same.

George

 

[88724]

Hi

People often mix up what I am saying here. I dont say its right that people should Just Jump into a large vehicle and drive.

Has far as motorhomes are concerned it is legal to do so, regardless of what the DVLA tell you, they dont write the law and when asked to quote the legislation that backs up their claim they cannot their legal dept spent 6 weeks trying to find it and could only come up with GOODS vehicle law which does not apply to motorhomes (the definitions are down to construction and Use and they say that Motorhomes are NOT Goods vehicles and therefore are not weight restricted.

If you want to say everyone should take a HEAVY GOODS VEHICLE test thats fair enough, but dont try to pretend that its a legal requirement.

Re the insurance thing no insurance company as yet refused to pay out on any accident by saying that the driver needed a Higher rated licence in the 30 + years that these large motorhomes have been imported dont you think thats strange? of all the people I have known that drive them only 2 have HGV licences. and no-one as had any complaints or even a raised eyebrow from the police, The local traffic police dept have looked and can find no charge that they could bring re the licence.

What I have said all along is, that legally you are OK without the licence, the only official body that disagree's is DVLA.

Whethor its actually sensible is another thing entirely.


George

 

[88724]

Hi Ian


Quote

" I think your just here to wind people up "

I could say the same of your postings lately

Please quote a case were the insurance company as refused to pay out on a large motorhome because of lack of HGV licence.

Like the last time, I asked you to furnish some rebuttal evidence rather than just saying "sweeping Statements" , I wont hold my breath awaiting any evidence to appear.

I spent ages researching this with Phone calls and faxs to

DVLA and a department of legal bods representing the DVLA

Crown prosecution service (who dropped the only case they ever tried to bring)

Dept of transport

Construction and Use (Marsham)

VOSA

Local Police Traffic Oficer (the chap the police call up to query the position on RT offences)

All of the Above depts cannot find any problem with what I say regarding the legislation Except the DVLA but the DVLA cannot show the legislation that supports their OPINION.

So can you had anything? BTW the American motorhome magazines have never heard of one claim being turned down due to licencing

If you like I can give you their phone numbers and a contact name, you could then ask them yourself, if any insurance company had ever tried it do you think they would not know ?

If you want to disagree or prove me wrong, do some research and show me and everyone else where I am wrong, your sniping doesnt help anyone.




George

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

Shall we try some Logic then ?

Quote

I don't know any insurance company that will pay out on a claim if they can find a way out of paying it.

Basically you are saying that they feel its OK to Drive a large Motorhome on nothing more than a car licence?

Seeing as they have paid out many times on large motorhomes driven by people who do not have an HGV licence, would you say thats evidence that the insurance companies believe a normal car licence is enough to drive a motorhome over 7.5 Tonnes?

George

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon


They used to ask to see your licence after an Accident, Now they dont have to they can pay a subscription and find your licence details via a quick phone call cost per call 49 pence so now they Just ring up and check. they get the low down on points and categories.


Quote

"I don't know, I've never spoken to anyone who has made an insurance claim for a vehicle they are not licenced to drive?"

Nice play on words, but the DVLA's and a few other peoples Opinion does not alter the law as written.

If a claim had been refused due to car licence on large Motorhome then the American motorhome mags would know about it.

Ring them and ask if they know of any claim being refused on those grounds?

George

 

[88724]

Hi John

How long ago?

And do you have the HGV classification on your new licence.

They (insurance companies) dont have to ask any more to see your licence, they make a quick call to DVLA to find out your points and groups.

George

 

[88724]

Hi Ray

Could you let me/us have a few more details, unfortunate though the Childs injuries are, they do tend to confirm what I have said all along Motorhomes are not HGV's and NOT weight restricted. Because they would not have messed around (turned a blind eye) with an Injury case.

Its interesting that even when stopped abroad you have been OK.


George

 

[88724]

Well the accident, UK or abroad, is your licence only standard for cars ?
Its interesting because it answers a lot of the snipes that have been put forth

ie Insurance wont pay out (this one crops up continually)

Being stopped abroad, had enough trouble researching UK Law, which countries etc

You mentioned the legal system, its just a little more detail that may help everyone get a better idea of the Legal position.

Amazing that someone who as had no problems (attempting) to slaughter me on public forum's sends a brief apology via email, but thats better than most who just skulk off when the evidence says they are wrong.

EDITED TO ADD that its not Ray (detourer) who sent me the email, His posts actually support my posting about Motorhomes are Not HGV's

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

I think if you are moving horses for someone else its commercial and as you say it then needs Tacho etc. But for personal use with living accomodation.........................

With regards to Marsham, dont ask loaded questions.

The question you need to ask is

Does a motorcaravan fall under the definition of a HGV to which they will answer NO

at no point have I or anyone else said that C&U Marsham Make licencing decisions, legally the DVLA dont either, thats all down to legisaltion. But the DVLA claim that marsham C&U classify a Motorhome over 7.5 tonnes as an HGV, nut when you ask (marsham) they say exactly the opposite ie a Motorhome is NOT and HGV.

Also construction and use dept are mentioned in the legislation as the arbitors of HGV definition and as I have already said they say Motorhome is Not HGV.

If it is an HGV (as you and the DVLA claim) then all new ones must be fitted with speed limiters and Tachographs. Ask Vosa they say that if a motorhome were classed as an HGV then it would have to be kitted out with Tacho etc Otherwise it would have to be listed as an EXEMPTED vehicle which it is not.

Re going back to motorcar weights, cars are defined and do have a few weights bandied about. BUT a motorhome is not a car.

Next we go back to Minibuses they have no weight limit and can be 20 tonnes or more as long as the vehicle meets construction and use and as the right number of axles etc. this is Just to show that not all vehicles are constricted by weight.

If we follow your logic forward Jonathon, its not a car so cant be driven on car licence, its not an HGV because the people who decide that (Marsham) say its not, The C class on a licence still refers back to HGV law which is Goods Vehicle (which means it doesnt cover motorhomes) so what licence is required Jon? According to the above no-one can drive a large motorhome legally.

How can you dismiss what Ray says Just because it doesnt fit your opinion?

George

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

From their own website

DVLA cannot give legal advice on how vehicles are classified for driving licence purposes. We can only give general guidance. The Vehicle Standards and Engineering Division, Great Minster House, 76 Marsham St, London, SW1P 4DR,(0207 944 2064), may be able to help classify a vehicle that falls under - Works Trucks, Agricultural Motor Vehicles, Industrial Tractors and Engineering Plant but only for the purposes of its Construction and Use.

So DVLA dont really count

The Law as written

all goverment depts except DVLA ( and they DVLA CANNOT point to the law that agrrees with their opinion, they send a leaflet which states its their opinion only)

Rays and many other peoples experience for last 30+ years

Local Police Traffic officer (the one that sits with the law books and answer plod out there's questions)

Vosa

Ministry

CPS

Construction and Use

Spanish police

Rays insurance companies

I have never suggested usng minibus as a loophole.

I am not going to argue it further with you all the evidence and all these people listed above, especially Rays experiences here and abroad pretty much seals it up for me. All the evidence says your wrong.

Night

 

[88724]

Hi Legend

Very good

But where they have removed HGV from wording, the law still refers back too the earlier legislation.

Also Vehicle definitions are done according to construction and Use, Marsham clearly say that a motorhome IS NOT and HGV regardless of its weight

 

[88724]

Hi Crack pot

I think the wording is Items incedental to the use of the Mobile accomodation, not load when its a motorhome

George

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

Isnt that the one defined as a living vehicle ie showmans vehicle which includes commercial use

Just off out so no time to check

George