[88808]

What is the maximum weight any rigid vehicle can be with only two axles?

18 Ton, above that it must have a third axle

What is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category C licence?

The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is not carrying passengers under PCV regs)

What is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category D licence?

The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is designed to carry passengers under PCV regs) The holder may also drive a purpose built bendi-bus articulated vehicle as it is considered to be one unit.

The maximum design weight of a bus must be stated on the vehicle; The ULW must be written on the side of the vehicle on the near side in front of the back wheel arch. The carrying capacity must be stated on the vehicle, to include the seating capacity and standing capacity. On double decker vehicles the seating capacity is stated as upper and lower. Standing is not permitted in the upper deck as this would affect the stability of the vehicle. The seating capacity of a bus is governed by weight and not volume, 15 people equals 1 ton. The luggage space is calculated and factored in with the seating capacity, added to the ULW to determine the MAM. Category D licence holders are permitted to drive any size of bus which is approved by the UK government for use on our roads.

If a PCV driver is caught with too many people on their vehicle they will be prosecuted in the same way as a HGV driver would be prosecuted for overloading their vehicle, or a car driver would be prosecuted for over loading their car.

A category D1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle with upto 16 passengers. As stated before any rigid vehicle can be upto 18 ton on 2 axles, if it is over 18 ton it must have 3 axles.

A category C1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle not designed to carry passengers under PCV regs upto 7.5 ton

As stated category D vehicles are not restricted by MAM, however

They are restricted by seating capacity; thus a vehicle with seating for 16 passengers allows a payload of just over 1 ton [15 people = 1 ton], if you add luggage you might get away with a payload of 2 tons.

Now considering the fact that pre 1997 licences permitted drivers to drive;

A car upto 3.5 ton

A vehicle [goods vehicle] upto 7.5 ton

A bus upto 16 seats [which actually equates to about 7 ton]

It would take a very broad interpretation of the legislation to say that a bus which is designed to carry people rather than "goods" should need to weigh more than 7 ton, the company I drive for has a 17 seater transit which has a MAM of 6.9 ton.

If a minibus was 18 ton it would have to be filled with 11 tons of something other than people. And I would argue that the extra weight would have to be cargo of some description which would make it a "goods vehicle".

If you have a vehicle with 7 tons of people and 11 tons of cargo, I would say that was a dual purpose vehicle under the road traffic act, rather than a bus?

 

[88808]

I am still waiting on your legal definition of a motor car as per statutory instruments.

 

[88808]

Why not answer the question?

You are legally permitted to drive a Car with a B licence, what is the legal definition of a Car? That definition will tell you what you CAN legally drive on a B licence.

What can you legally drive on a car licence?

ie Define a car.


You are reading into the legislation what you want to read.

There is no driving licence category for motorhomes or motor caravans.

The basic legal prescedent of the pre 1997 driving licence is that the holder is issued with B D1 C1

B is a vehicle upto 3.5t
D1 and C1 are vehicles upto 7.5t (based on cargo carried or seating capacity.)

You have jumped on the fact that it DOESNT say you CANT drive a motorhome over 7.5t as it doesnt actually have the words motorhome or motorcaravan in the legislation.

You insist that a motorhome is not a "goods vehicle" as it does not carry goods for hire and reward.

If you are limited to a vehicle upto 7.5t on the basis of the D1 and C1 licence what makes you presume you can drive a motorhome regardless of weight.

Don't quote construction and use, they don't issue driving licences.

 

[88808]

Yes but if you read the OP, as you are aware the DVLA cannot state law.

The legal precedent of the pre 1997 licence is a vehicle upto 7.5t

If you do the maths there is no need for a 16 seat vehicle to weigh more than 7.5t,

Why do you thinkg you are limited to 16 seats on a D1 licence?

Why not 19 or 23 or 25??

16 is the magic number, that is the number of people you can carry along with reasonable personal luggage in a vehicle within 7.5t

The current DVLA staff "don't know" or have forgotten the relationship between seating, weight and vehicle size.

As I said, Why would you need a 16 seat passenger vehicle not used to carry "goods" which weighs more than 7.5t??

The D1 licence does not state MAM as it states seating capacity. Bus licence categories are based on seating as that is how a driver interprets the loading of the vehicle.

A motorhome is not restricted by weight, you can have a motorhome as big as you want. It does not mean you can drive it on a licence which relates to a "car"

The definition of which you still do not want to look at.

 

[88808]

I have read the legislation.

Now tell me what the legal definition of a car is!

 

[88808]

Where does it say you can drive any size of vehicle on a car licence?

What is the legal definition of a car?

N.B. C1 is not a car.

If you de plate a 10 ton lorry to 7.5t you can drive it on a C1 licence,

But what about a vehicle which weighs 9 ton EMPTY, you can't derate that to less than 7.5t

Take a walk around your local bus station, have a look at the weight on the side of these vehicles. ULW 10500 KG is typical for a double decker bus or a coach. thats 10.5 ton Unladen!

Are we suggesting that if you convert that into a motorhome you can drive a 10.5 ton vehicle on a "car" licence?

 

[88808]

I agree that a motor home or caravan is not a HGV LGV or PCV I never said it was!

Simply this;

A car licence category B has a weight restriction of 3.5t and always has done. There are a list of exceptions to this stated in legislation, motorhomes are not covered by those exceptions.


Re D1 that is the DVLA's interpretation of the law, which you have already stated cannot be relied upon, the police go by what the DVLA say.

 

[88808]

I will give you a "FACT" If you went and bought a brand new HGV/LGV tractor unit and run it on trade plates,without the fifth wheel coupling fitted, you could drive this on a car licence. Why, because it is not registered as a goods vehicle and there is no feasible way you could carry goods on or in it.

I think you will find that a chassis cab or tractor unit has a MAM of less than 7.5t so can be driven on a C1 licence.

It may be over 3.5t so a B category licence holder may not be able to drive it.

A car licence is category B !!!!!!

weight not an issue minibus any weight can be driven on car licence

Not on a B licence, which is the legal definition of a car licence. you are limited to 4.25t

 

[88808]

A car licence allows the driver to drive a vehicle upto 3.5t end of story.


I don't need to prove that a large motorhome is an HGV LGV PCV or any other vehicle.

If it wieghts more than 3.5t its not a car, therefor cannot be driven on a car licence. It is not covered by the exceptions listed in the legislation.

As for tachographs, I can drive a HGV or PCV (less than 10 seats) for social purposes without a tachograph.

A private HGV does not require a tachograph under the regs.

Speed limiters relate to the age of the vehicle, or the date of it's first use. It would be upto VOSA to decide if a speed limiter is required.

The MOT class has no bearing on the driving licence category.

 

[88808]

If you passed you car test after 1997 you will not automatically be granted a C1 and D1 licence.

If you were lucky enough to sit your test before 1997 well done, they've got wise to that one :lol: :lol:



Back to the OP, take a look at the EU integration of drivers licence proposals, they state that C1 and D1 are comparable vehicles and are proposing issuing C1 and D1 together when sitting either test.

As I said the D1 licence was meant to be upto 7.5t, DVLA seem to have lost the plot 8)

 

[88808]

DVLA say 7.5t

 

[88808]

I hold HGV and PCV so you can argue amongst yourselves. :wink:

 

[88808]

I've missed most of this argument, so must agree with Jonathon. I do not have an LGV license - yet. But there is no way I would drive anything bigger than our EuraMobil without one, regardless of the law.

I knocked off part of the side trim on our van. Not because I am a woman, but because I am a car driver and when you get stressed or panic you resort to pre-programming. To drive larger I need new defaults!

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

I would highly recommend the LGV (C) licence, you will learn alot about driving large vehicles. There is alot to consider when driving a large vehicle which is not covered in the car test.

Take care

Jonathan

 

[88808]

My motor insurance policy has the following disclaimer;

"Provided that the person driving holds a licence to drive a motor vehicle or has held and is not disqualified for holding or obtaining such a licence"

That statement places the onus on myself to ensure that the person driving my vehicle holds a licence or provisional licence for the vehicle being driven.

I don't know any insurance company that will pay out on a claim if they can find a way out of paying it.

 

[88808]

Who needs the general election when we have topics like this!!

arvy.

Are you thinking, what we are thinking :lol:

 

[88808]

Hi Jonathon

Shall we try some Logic then ?

Quote

I don't know any insurance company that will pay out on a claim if they can find a way out of paying it.

Basically you are saying that they feel its OK to Drive a large Motorhome on nothing more than a car licence?

Seeing as they have paid out many times on large motorhomes driven by people who do not have an HGV licence, would you say thats evidence that the insurance companies believe a normal car licence is enough to drive a motorhome over 7.5 Tonnes?

George

I don't know, I've never spoken to anyone who has made an insurance claim for a vehicle they are not licenced to drive?

If I was an insurance claims assessor I would want to see a copy of the driving licence, at least to establish they actually hold a licence.

But my own experience of insurance in general is they will do their best not to pay out.

 

[88808]

Do you hold a C1 licence?

 

[88808]

Slightly off type of vehicle, but a couple of othern points do show that once a base HGV chassis is constructed and re-reg'ed..............My brother-in-law keeps horses. When last in the UK I went to a large show. Some of the horse boxes there were HUGE, with living accommodation etc etc. I even saw a twin-axel one. One in particular caught my eye, partly because of it's size and partly because of the obviously very young female groom driver. I joked with her about handling, comfort etc and she confirmed her other vehicle was a Ford Fiesta.......and as far as she was concerned/confirmed she could drive that monster on her car licence.

Sorry but that is nonsense. The guy who owns the storage yard where Dragon bus lives, had a horse box and he needed a C licence, he also needed a tachograph if he was using it to transport show horses.

I know a girl who drives a large horse box, but it is under 7.5t and she holds a C1 licence.

I also phoned construction and use today with regard to motorcaravans, the nice man told me the definition as per SI (1986) 1078 and that construction and use don't have anything to do with classifying driving licence categories, the DVLA are responsible for driving licences.

Which brings me back to the car licence category B upto 3500KG, anyone want to tell me how you get around the legal definition of a motorcar?

 

[88808]

Seems like yes, whatever that is!

Thats the bit of paper that lets you drive something upto 7500KG, not to be confused with the bit of paper which allows people to drive things upto 3500KG

 

[88808]

A motor caravan does not fall into the definition of a motorcar, nor does it fall into the definition of a HGV, or for that matter a PCV.

There is a legal definition of a motor caravan contained in SI (1986) 1078 which states it is a vehicle designed to carry persons and goods which is fitted with fixed living accommodation.

Now as the legal definition of a car category B is a 4 wheel vehicle upto 3500KG regardless of the use of the vehicle that means it can be a commercial vehicle ie a transit, or a car upto 8 seats. Or a small motorhome.

A person who has a category B licence cannot drive a car which weighs more than 3500KG or tow a trailer over 750KG, if they cannot drive a car over 3500KG does that imply they can drive a van of any size or a lorry of any size provided it's not a car?

Pre 1997 the limit was 7500KG, a minibus is a "small bus", the definition appears to have been lost in translation.

The crux of your arguement is that the HGV licence is for driving goods vehicles. And as a "motorcaravan" is not an HGV therefor it can be driven on a car licence. The only problem with this arguement is that a car licence has a water tight definition which limits the size of vehicle that can be driven. There are a list of exemptions but "motorcaravan" is not on that list.

Using the minibus loop hole also opens up problems, if you state the vehicle is a "motorcaravan" on the V5C then it cannot be a minibus. If it is a "minibus" on the V5C then you run into problems with getting insurance.