[88724]

Hi Jonathon

From their own website

DVLA cannot give legal advice on how vehicles are classified for driving licence purposes. We can only give general guidance. The Vehicle Standards and Engineering Division, Great Minster House, 76 Marsham St, London, SW1P 4DR,(0207 944 2064), may be able to help classify a vehicle that falls under - Works Trucks, Agricultural Motor Vehicles, Industrial Tractors and Engineering Plant but only for the purposes of its Construction and Use.

So DVLA dont really count

The Law as written

all goverment depts except DVLA ( and they DVLA CANNOT point to the law that agrrees with their opinion, they send a leaflet which states its their opinion only)

Rays and many other peoples experience for last 30+ years

Local Police Traffic officer (the one that sits with the law books and answer plod out there's questions)

Vosa

Ministry

CPS

Construction and Use

Spanish police

Rays insurance companies

I have never suggested usng minibus as a loophole.

I am not going to argue it further with you all the evidence and all these people listed above, especially Rays experiences here and abroad pretty much seals it up for me. All the evidence says your wrong.

Night

 

[88808]

Phew, what luck...............police let me go and the insurance paid up.
(and the next Mhome is even bigger).

that was lucky then :lol: :lol:

I wouldnt do it myself

 

[Detourer]

Hi RDB

Do what?

 

[88808]

At the end of the day, you are waiting for someone to show you legislation which says you can't.

I am waiting for someone to show me legislation which says you can.

:lol: :lol:

It doesnt say you can't drive a massive motorcaravan on a B licence so you say you can.

I have always worked on the principal that I needed to obtain a peice of paper which allows me to do things.

I had to get a bit of paper to allow me to allow me to take charge of the navigation of a ship. I had to study for 4 years and sit many exams before I was allowed to stand on the bridge of a ship on my own. I had to get a bit of paper to allow me to drive the cranes onboard the ships. Yet I cannot drive a crane on dry land :roll:

I needed a peice of paper which would allow me to drive a car under the supervision of a person who is over 21 years old and had held a licence for that category of vehicle for at least 3 years. And if they wanted to charge me money to teach me, they would have to have passed all 3 exams to be granted an ADI badge.

Once I got my peice of paper to allow me to drive a car on my own I was concious that I could not drive a big van or a minibus. So I had to get a peice of paper to let me drive a bus. And then another to let me drive a lorry.

Now I can drive a ship, a car, a bus and a lorry. But I still need another peice of paper to allow me to tow a caravan :lol: :lol:

I am sure I could tow a caravan, I can drive a bus and a lorry and the QE2 for that matter so why don't I just hitch a caravan on the back of my car? Oh b*llox I need another bit of paper to allow me to do it. :?

:lol: :lol:

I collect bits of paper. It lets me sleep easy at night.

If there is anyone else out there who wants to sleep easy at night in their 25 tonne camper van, just get a HGV licence :wink:

 

[Detourer]

Or cover yourself in loads of paper...........much of it irrelevant.

No problem with sleeping this end.........No little picture of a motorhome on my licence, 30+ years in truck based motorhomes all over the World, never a problem with insurance, never a problem with the law (many dealings with both)..............

25ton motorhome......now there's a thought!

 

[88808]

Or cover yourself in loads of paper...........much of it irrelevant.

Un fortunately we live in a society reliant on bits of paper, In my ten years at sea I saw the introduction of various mad capped trends.

In order to sail a ship from a port, I had to sign and date dozens of check lists. Not just tick the boxes and sign the sheet, but sign and date every box. We used to have a laminated check list on the bridge with pre departure and pre arrival check lists. It was acceptable 10 years ago to tick the boxes with a chinagraph and then enter an entry in the ships log book stating the check list had been completed.

Now there are 3 A4 sheets full of boxes which must be signed and dated fully before an entry is made in the ships log book, the engine room log book, the ships management log and the maneouvering book.

These are all legal documents which are now required. Despite all of this we still managed to sail a ship where the master had forgotten to turn on the bow thruster before letting go the mooring ropes. I hasten to add that the box had been signed and dated to confirm the bow thruster had been switched on and tested.

Ships have been sailing around the world for hundreds of years without quality assurance or the ISM code, but now we have these silly bits of paper and we must fill them in and sign them and date them and file them.

The road traffic act has also changed, they are becoming less specific about certain categories of licence. In the past you did not even have to sit a driving test. Now you have to sit 3 tests before you can even drive a car on your own. Even when you have passed the 3 tests you can only drive little things and you can't tow trailers.

It's all very specific and carefully worded.

Thats another phenomenon this paper culture brings.... arse covering.

The reason I had to sign and date every item on the check list was to ensure I was held accountable for any error.

What a lovely world. :lol:

 

[legend]

I passed my driving test in the 70's on a motor bike and in a car with manual transmission.
According to my license I am permitted to drive motor vehicles of groups A, D, E

On my license the GROUPS are defined
DRIVING LICENCE GROUPS (See notes)
A Any motor vehicle other than a vehicle in Group X C
B Any motor vehicle with automatic transmission other than a vehicle in Group X c
C Any motor tricycle (other than an Invalid carriage, weighing not more than 425kg unladen
D Any motor bicycle (with or without sidecar) b
E Moped a
F Agricultural tractor mounted on wheels b
G Road roller ' b
H Track laying vehicle steered by its tracks
J Invalid carriage
K Mowing machine or pedestrian controlled vehicle
L Electrically propelled vehicle (other than an invalid carriage)
M Trolley vehicle
N Vehicle exempted from duty under Section 7(1) of the Vehicles (Excise) Act 1971
X Motor bicycle which is not electrically propelled; road roller; vehicle steered by its tracks; invalid carriage; trolley vehicle

It also carries these NOTES
NOTES

'Motor car' means a motor vehicle other than motor cycle or agricultural tractor, which is constructed or adapted to carry passengers or to carry or haul a load but which is not a large passenger vehicle or a goods vehicle.

'Large passenger vehicle' means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry more than 9 persons including the driver.

'Goods vehicle' means a motor vehicle, other than a large passenger vehicle or agricultural tractor, constructed or adapted to carry or haul a load and with a maximum weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes.

'Maximum weight' means the maximum permitted weight of the vehicle when fully laden; it includes the weight of any trailer or semi-trailer.

Driving Heavy Goods and Public Service Vehicles
You must obtain an additional license before you drive either a heavy goods vehicle or a public service vehicle.

SO.............

1. I reckon Group A allows me to drive ANY MOTOR VEHICLE other than a road roller, a vehicle steered by its tracks, an invalid carriage or a trolley vehicle - it says so.

That's my argumment and I'm sticking to it!!

My Group D allows me to drive a motor cycle - which is surely a motor vehicle and so covered in my group A 'allowance'. Likewise with my group E allowance for a moped.

There is no mention of any weight limit, number of passengers allowed etc etc. I can drive ANY MOTOR VEHICLE except "road roller; vehicle steered by its tracks; invalid carriage; trolley vehicle"

So I am definately OK.

However..........
If for Group A it said 'motor car' that would be a different matter. We have definitions of motor car etc.

So assuming that it really means 'motor car' then it is all right unless it is a "large passenger vehicle or a goods vehicle".

If Group A MEANS Motor Car then I can drive any vehicle which is "not a large passenger vehicle or a goods vehicle"

A large passenger vehicle is for more than 9 people - no mention of weight there.

A 'Motor car' is a vehicle which is not a goods vehicle. i.e. I can drive a motor car but not a goods vehicle.
A goods vehicle is a motor vehicle constructed with a maximim weight of 3.5 tonnes - but I can't drive it anyway according to the above line!

A goods vehicle carries a maximin weight of 3.5 tonnes.

Now presumable we have contents in our motorhomes - bedding, food, clothing, water, bicycles, beach chairs etc etc - i.e. A LOAD. We will all

be aware of the maximum LOAD that we can carry.
Therfore does it not make it a goods vehicle. i.e. "'Goods vehicle' means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry or haul a load." A motorhome is definately constructed or adapted to carry a load.

This carries a 3.5 tonnes maximum.
But I can't drive it anyway !!

I think the wording on the driving license is all to pot.

 

[88832]

QUOTE:Now presumable we have contents in our motorhomes - bedding, food, clothing, water, bicycles, beach chairs etc etc - i.e. A LOAD. We will all

be aware of the maximum LOAD that we can carry.
Therfore does it not make it a goods vehicle. i.e. "'Goods vehicle' means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry or haul a load." A motorhome is definately constructed or adapted to carry a load. >


No it is not :lol: It is constructed to carry people and their PERSONAL belongings and chatels, not for hire or reward ! I have said this before, if you take the goods carrying capability away from a goods vehicle, it can no longer carry goods, so therefore it is no longer a goods vehicle, personal belongings are not classed as goods :lol:
And you can drive that on a ordinary car licence, fact!
As for big cranes, you only need a ordinary car licence to DRIVE one on the public highway. You will need a CITB cert to operate the crane, but not to drive it! (I am refering to mobile cranes that move on the roads, with wheels) BECAUSE IT IS NOT A GOODS VEHICLE, it is a CRANE :lol: Take the fifth wheel coupling off a articulated tractor unit and you can drive it on a ordinary car licence, it is no longer capable of carrying goods, so is no longer classed as a goods vehicle! A MOTORCARAVAN is not a GOODS vehicle, it is a MOTORCARAVAN


Crackpot.

 

[88724]

Hi Legend

Very good

But where they have removed HGV from wording, the law still refers back too the earlier legislation.

Also Vehicle definitions are done according to construction and Use, Marsham clearly say that a motorhome IS NOT and HGV regardless of its weight

 

[88808]

Hi Legend,

As you are aware the licence categories have changed, most licences over the past 20 years state weight limits for vehicle types. It would be interested to see what would happen if you applied for a photo card driving licence?

The structuring of sea going qualifications was changed by the STCW 95 convention, many people who had been sailing as captain on smaller ships found that when they had to revalidate their ship licence they lost their entitlement to sail as master and had to undergo training and exams to pass the masters ticket.

When I passed my car test in 1997 my licence was quite clearly stated 3500KG upto 8 seats. So there is no real way of getting around that definition.

 

[88808]

As for big cranes, you only need a ordinary car licence to DRIVE one on the public highway. You will need a CITB cert to operate the crane, but not to drive it! (I am refering to mobile cranes that move on the roads, with wheels) BECAUSE IT IS NOT A GOODS VEHICLE, it is a CRANE Take the fifth wheel coupling off a articulated tractor unit and you can drive it on a ordinary car licence, it is no longer capable of carrying goods, so is no longer classed as a goods vehicle! A MOTORCARAVAN is not a GOODS vehicle, it is a MOTORCARAVAN

Incomplete large vehicles can only be driven based on the weight. If you take the 5th wheel coupling off an artic tractor and the base vehicle weighs more than 3500KG it CANNOT be driven with a B licence. If it is under 3500KG then yes it can be driven on a B licence.

A moblie crane is listed on the list of exemptions

MOBILE CRANES
Category B licence holders were able to drive mobile cranes up until 31 December 1998. From1st January 1999 a category C1 driving licence is required to drive a mobile crane which exceeds 3.5 tonnes but not 7.5 tonnes and category C if over 7.5 tonnes.

 

[88724]

Hi Crack pot

I think the wording is Items incedental to the use of the Mobile accomodation, not load when its a motorhome

George

 

[88808]

Hi Crack pot

I think the wording is Items incedental to the use of the Mobile accomodation, not load when its a motorhome

George

There is a legal definition of a motor caravan contained in SI (1986) 1078 which states it is a vehicle designed to carry persons and goods which is fitted with fixed living accommodation.

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

Isnt that the one defined as a living vehicle ie showmans vehicle which includes commercial use

Just off out so no time to check

George

 

[legend]

Crackpot - All of the wording and information has been taken off my driving license. The official document given to me to inform me of what I can and cannot drive.

Red_dragon - I think you will find that the categories I can drive will be unaltered if I applied for a photo license.

It's a bit like seat belts - if you have a car old enough then the new rules do not apply and you do not have to fit them.

I just find it amazing how ambiguous it all is.

 

[88724]

Hi All

here are a few Statutory instruments that again show clearly weights with relation to Good vehicles NOT motorhomes.

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2001/20010306.htm

RED DRAGON QUOTE

There is a legal definition of a motor caravan contained in SI (1986) 1078 which states it is a vehicle designed to carry persons and goods which is fitted with fixed living accommodation.

END QUOTE

Jonathan you are as bad as the DVLA for trying to slip in words that are not there read the actual wording below, the definition is as follows and its in SI 1996 3013 not 1986 1078, second error is that it doesnt mention Goods as the DVLA and yourself claim its worded "their effects", also the living accomodation part is worded vaguely which leaves it open to many interpretations and can be as simple as you like.

"motor caravan" means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users;

From the link below, which also tracks back to earlier legislation and lists goods vehicles seperately yet again.
http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19963013_en_2.htm

If you look over the licencing regs that the DVLA say cover this you will find that it lists weight limits for goods vehicles, The DVLA claim this covers Motor caravans too, BUT the construction and use Dept say quite clearly that a Motor caravan IS NOT a goods vehicle. The law also lists them Quite seperately especially when it comes to weights, no matter how you and the DVLA try you cannot make a motor caravan fit the Goods vehicle description, their is only one classification that covers a goods vehicle and Motor caravan its called a Living van but even this is clearly defined as a business vehicle with living accomodation (basically showmans vans)

So either no part of your licence covers anyone for motor caravans of any weight or all motorcaravans are covered by default under a normal car licence PRE or POST 1997

 

[88808]

Jonathan you are as bad as the DVLA for trying to slip in words that are not there read the actual wording below, the definition is as follows and its in SI 1996 3013 not 1986 1078, second error is that it doesnt mention Goods as the DVLA and yourself claim its worded "their effects", also the living accomodation part is worded vaguely which leaves it open to many interpretations and can be as simple as you like.

Have you actually read SI (1986) 1078 ? It's not available on the net as hmso web records only go back to 1987 :wink:

Ok so we get back to this;

Show me where it says I CAN drive a motorcaravan over 3500KG with a 1997 category B driving licence?

It's not good enough to say "it doesnt say I can't". The road traffic act doesnt say I can't fly a helicopter, so does that mean I can use my B licence to fly a helicopter??

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon


No I have not read the one you quote, but Marsham have and say that it doesnt include "goods" the one I quoted above is where they amend the law and post the discription of a motor caravan. Evevn if the earlier one did include (which it does not) the later discription would supercede anyway.

I think Ray as shown by precedent over many years, Crackpot and Leyland have also done a pretty good Job, the CPS dropped the only case they have ever tried to bring.

I have recently spoke to someone who has had to produce their docs, related !

They have a 16 tonne eurocargo converted to motorhome

Docs produced.

1. insurance for motorhome
2. Licence standard car pre 97
3. registration documents

Action taken by police ?

Nil

he as also had to produce is docs for French and Belgium Police, bear in mind this thing is massive and is quite obviously over 7.5 tonnes

End result no action, according to you he is quite obviously not entitled to drive (you are saying the same about Ray) are all the police making glaring errors? even in the case of rays accident ?

 

[88808]

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992864.htm

Competence to drive classes of vehicle: general
6. - (1) Where a person holds, or has held, a relevant full licence authorising him to drive vehicles included in any category or, as the case may be, sub-category he is deemed competent to drive -

(a) vehicles of all classes included in that category or sub-category unless by that licence he is or was authorised to drive -

(i) only motor vehicles of a specified class within that category or sub-category, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive only vehicles of that class, or

(ii) only motor vehicles adapted on account of a disability, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive only such classes of vehicle included in that category or sub-category as are so adapted (and for the purposes of this paragraph, a motor bicycle with a side-car may be treated in an appropriate case as a motor vehicle adapted on account of a disability),

and

(b) all classes of vehicle included in any other category or sub-category which is specified in column (3) of Schedule 2 as an additional category or sub-category in relation to that category or sub-category unless by that licence he is or was authorised to drive -

(i) only motor vehicles having automatic transmission, in which case he shall, subject to paragraph (2), be deemed competent to drive only such classes of motor vehicle included in the additional category or sub-category as have automatic transmission, or

(ii) only motor vehicles adapted on account of a disability, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive only such classes of vehicle included in the additional category or sub-category as are so adapted.

(2) Where the additional category is F, K or P, paragraph (1)(b)(i) shall not apply.

So if you sit a category B test, you can drive vehicles in category B and B1 only.

If your licence states C1 or D1 then you can drive vehicles in that sub category.

B being a vehicle upto 3500KG
C1 being a vehicle upto 7500KG

If you want to drive a vehicle over 7500KG and it is not on the list of exemptions you need to hold a C licence.

It is irrelevant whether the vehicle is a "goods vehicle" or not, if it is over 7500KG you require a C licence.

Motorcaravan is not on the the list of exemptions where it is possible to drive larger vehicles on a B licence, therefor it cannot be driven on a B licence. It then follows that it cannot be driven on a C1 licence if it is over 7500KG

To drive any vehicle over 3500KG which is not a PCV or a large vehicle on the list of exemptions you need a category C licence, or sub category C1 for vehicles under 7500KG.

 

[88724]

Yes Jonathon

but what you are missing is that were they Just use weights now,when you look at the legisalation it still refers only to GOODS vehicles over those weights and IF it did not several other vehicles would be effected.

When I pointed out that the earlier legisalation as not been changed by that new 1999 act (with regard to vehicles which are not goods vehicles) they have not been able to show were weights have been applied to any vehicle other than Goods Vehicles. They cant show the change in law.

also you would need a Tacho and drivers hours for a motorhome ask VOSA as far as they are concerned a Motor caravan is Not a goods Vehicle


What you have quoted refers back to earlier legisaltion and does not change the position at all.

If it did, it as suddenly made all motorhomes ilegal to drive which is clearly nonsense. Because according to your Helicopter theory because they do not tell you clearly that you can drive a motorhome you obviously cant

Amazing how you keep saying that you and the DVLA are right, but ignoring all the evidence.

were all the cops Involved with Ray and my relative all wrong? are the local traffic office legal Dept wrong?

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.