[88808]

also you would need a Tacho and drivers hours for a motorhome ask VOSA as far as they are concerned a Motor caravan is Not a goods Vehicle

Not all HGV's or PCV require tacho's or drivers hours. I've been driving for over a year in a double decker bus legally exempt from tachographs and driving hours regulations.

I spoke to construction and use on the phone, as far as they are concerned they have nothing at all to do with driving licences or licence categories. They are only interested in the construction and equipment.

VOSA carry out the inspection of vehicles, they do not have anything to do with driving licence categories.

DVLA maintain a record of vehicle and driver licences and issue the licences.

DSA administer the driving tests.

The police can only go by what they know, it depends on who stops you. I have been stopped in dragon bus and they never asked me to present any documents.

A major factor is when you obtained your licence. The longer you have held your licence the more scope you have for the types of vehicle you can drive.

My mum passed her test in the late 1980's and has a C1 licence, I passed in 1997 and had a B licence.

There is no way you can drive a vehicle over 3500KG with a B licence. There is absolutely no way you can get round it.

 

[88808]

If it did, it as suddenly made all motorhomes ilegal to drive which is clearly nonsense. Because according to your Helicopter theory because they do not tell you clearly that you can drive a motorhome you obviously cant.

What the legislation actually tells us is that you can drive a vehicle upto 3500KG with a category B licence.

It then tells us what other vehicles can be driven on a category B licence.

For me that is black and white. With a category B car licence you can drive;

Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the large vehicles listed below:

a goods vehicle propelled by steam (e.g. large vehicles with coal or wood burning engines);

road construction vehicles used or kept on the road solely for the conveyance of built-in road construction machinery (with or without articles or materials used for the purpose of that machinery);

engineering plant (vehicles designed or constructed for the purpose of engineering operations for mobile cranes see * below)

works trucks (primarily designed for use in private premises or in the immediate vicinity e.g. dumper trucks/forklift trucks);

industrial tractors (tractors used mainly for haulage work off the public road, the vehicle must not have an unladen weight exceeding 7370kgs and have a design speed not exceeding 20mph);

agricultural motor vehicles which are not agricultural or forestry tractors (primarily used off the public road e.g. crop sprayer/combine harvester);

digging machines (vehicles which are limited to travel on a public road only for the purpose of proceeding to or from sites - used for trench digging or any kind of excavating or shovelling work e.g. vehicles with digging buckets / shovels);

goods vehicle which is not used on public roads or, if it is so used during any calendar week -

is used only in passing from land in the occupation of a person keeping the vehicle to other land in the occupation of that person, and

is not used on public roads for distances exceeding an aggregate of 9.7 kilometres in that calendar week;

goods vehicle, other than an agricultural motor vehicle, which -

is used only for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry,

is used on roads only in passing between different areas of land occupied by the same person, and

in passing between any two such areas does not travel a distance exceeding 1.5 kilometres on roads;

goods vehicles used for no purpose other than the haulage of lifeboats and the conveyance of the necessary gear of the lifeboats which are being hauled;

goods vehicles manufactured before 1 January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer;

articulated goods vehicles not exceeding 3.05 tonnes unladen weight;

goods vehicle in the service of a visiting force or headquarters as defined in the Visiting Forces and International Headquarters (Application of Law Order 1965 (a));

goods vehicle driven by a constable for the purpose of removing or avoiding obstruction to other road users or other members of the public, for the purpose of protecting life or property (including the vehicle and its load) or for other similar purposes;

goods vehicle fitted with apparatus designed for raising a disabled vehicle partly from the ground and for drawing a disabled vehicle when so raised (whether by partial superimposition or otherwise) being a vehicle which -

is used solely for dealing with disabled vehicles;

is not used for the conveyance of any goods or load other than a disabled vehicle when so raised and water, fuel, accumulators and articles required for the operation of, or in connection with, such apparatus or otherwise for dealing with disabled vehicles; and

has an unladen weight not exceeding 3.05 tonnes;

mobile project vehicles - having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes and constructed or adapted to carry not more than 8 persons in addition to the driver and carries principally goods or burden consisting of;

play or educational equipment and articles required in connection with the use of such equipment, or

articles required for the purposes of display or of an exhibition, and the primary purpose of which is used as a recreational, educational or instructional facility when stationary.

Drivers must be aged 21 and have held a category B licence for at least 2 years. A mobile project vehicle may only be driven on behalf of a non-commercial body. However, drivers who passed their car test before 1 January 1997 are not subject to these conditions.

*MOBILE CRANES
Category B licence holders were able to drive mobile cranes up until 31 December 1998. From1st January 1999 a category C1 driving licence is required to drive a mobile crane which exceeds 3.5 tonnes but not 7.5 tonnes and category C if over 7.5 tonnes.

Now if it's not on the list of things that can be driven on a B licence then it I would say that it cannot be driven?

 

[88724]

Hi Jonthan

One last shot,

Yes because certain vehicles can be legally exempt (from tachographs), a motor home is not on the list of legally exemptable vehicles so............


Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

Construction and USE (Please stop wording things as though I have said them its tiresome setting the record straight, besides inaccurately quoting laws ie adding Goods etc into a description when it isnt even there) I agree that they do not decide licencing I have never said otherwise, BUT DVLA say they do decide wethor a vehicle is HGV or not and "THE man from Construction and Use he SAY NO" its not HGV

Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

VOSA Yes amongst other things inspect vehicles And they SAY a motorhome is CLASS 4 Same as a car and they dont care if it weighs 40 tonnes as long as its got legal axles, its still a class 4 Same as a car

Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

The Police if they dont know radio through to a Traffic division legal officer and I have spoken to the one round here. if its a motorhome they are happy if you have a full car licence PRE or post 97

Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

Ray as been involved in a serious accident and as been OK'd driving a huge motorhome, end result No problem (licencing and insurance wise)


Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

Next he and other drivers have been stopped many times are all the police officers wrong ?


Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

Crown prosecution service dropped the only case they ever started to bring (after going to court 3 times and adjourning) Huge american motorhome in 3rd lane of motorway, eveidence on film, Plod on ground, and the driver signed a statement admitting he was driving on ordinary car licence (I dont know pre or post 97 will have to check that)



My mum passed a PSV in the mid 70's and drove buses in Derby probably before you were born. But as they said in airplane thats not important right now.

Quote

There is no way you can drive a vehicle over 3500KG with a B licence. There is absolutely no way you can get round it.

Talk about ilogical argument ??!!!! people are doing it every day, post 97 drivers are driving huge american motorhomes, visit your local motorcross and ask round the owners of over 3.5 tonne vans you will be amazed how many 18-19 yr olds are driving motorhomes that are obviously over "your" limit.

Jonathon ask if a motorhome is on the list of legally exempted vehicles (exempt from Tachograph) it is not, then ask them how come? its over 7.5 tonnes and not on the list of exemptions, you know what they said?

It is a motorhome, motorhomes are not weight limited goods vehicles therefore are outside the scope of the legislation....................


Please ask your local cop shop traffic officer what he thinks.

Ring the american motorhome mags and ask them of any case were a driver as been prosecuted for not having HGV to drive a huge american motorhome

One last point

Murder is not against any written statute, do you believe that you would not be prosecuted for murder?, Much of English and Scottish law is set by precedent ie what as gone before, ie it doesnt have to be written down to be legal or vice versa.

What you are trying to say is that all the above as been dealt with by idiots, because they are all getting it wrong according to you and the DVLA



George

 

[88808]

George,

When is a car not a car?

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

Its up to the punters now, there is not much point carrying this on.

What it boils down to is Either ......................

I am right and the Police are acting correctly OR

You are right and all the police forces and the CPS are stupid and Have been for over 30 years.

PS

Two Leading London firms of solicitors and a top Barrister were hired to act on behalf of the Driver Mr Mark Bishop by Travelworld, the main thrust of their defence was that the driver was driving a motor caravan and not a goods vehicle so therefore an LGV or HGV licence was not required.

PPS when I started looking at this I was on "your" side ie I believed that they were getting away with driving over 7.5 tonnes ilegally,the title of my first post on the subject was "How do they get away with driving huge american motorhomes" But as I looked into it I changed my mind.

here is that first post

I have been researching this for over a year now and thought American motor home drivers were just plain lucky to have got away with driving 38ft vehicles that weigh far in excess of 7.5 tonnes on ordinary licences (i.e. not LGV = Large Goods Vehicle or HGV Heavy goods Vehicle)

There are no legal precedents as no case as been "tried", however I have found one case that went to court three times, twice adjourned by the CPS and then on the third occasion they withdrew all charges and the court awarded paid all costs for the defendant!

The CPS cited lack of evidence however this does not ring true as they had Video Camera Evidence, Police on the ground witnesses, and the driver did not deny driving the vehicle, the vehicle was travelling in the Outside lane of the M6 a road position that is totally illegal for LGV and HGV vehicles.

Two Leading London firms of solicitors and a top Barrister were hired to act on behalf of the Driver Mr Mark Bishop by Travelworld, the main thrust of their defence was that the driver was driving a motor caravan and not a goods vehicle so therefore an LGV or HGV licence was not required.

It seems highly likely that the case was dropped because there are no separate rules for motor caravan licensing and that because an LGV and HGV is defined legally as a Goods carrying vehicle (over certain set weights) which obviously a motor caravan is not, that they have no way of bringing charges!! The really strange bit is that if that's the case no-one as got a licence to drive a motor caravan or every-ones full licence covers them for any weight of vehicle that is not a goods vehicle.

I have tried the relevant Transport departments and no-one can give any information as to what class a motor caravan comes under, all initially point to LGV and HGV and when I point out the Definition of HGV/LGV they have no idea of how to actually classify it! I have a string of "I'll get back to you" and they never have!

Have sent a fax today asking them to point out the relevant legislation to back their claim that 7.5 tonnes is the legal max for motor homes without an LGV or HGV licence.

Heres the rest on the SBMCC site

http://s3.invisionfree.com/SBMCC/index.php?showtopic=772&st=0

Always been hotly debated.

 

[88808]

When did this "test case" take place?

What were the charges?

What was the MAM of the vehicle in question, was it over 7.5tonne?

What sort of licence did the defendant hold at the time?

The law has changed over the past 30 years, driving tests have changed. If you sat your car test today you would have a completely different licence to the one you currently hold.

When I passed my car test, shortly after the 1997 change over I could only drive a vehicle upto 3500KG regardless of use. I could drive a small minibus upto 8 passenger seats, 16 seater under strict conditions after 2years probation.

Now If you are right why is this hire company stating you need a C1 licence to hire one of their motorhomes? I suppose they just assume this to be the case as the government agency that issues driving licences said so.

http://www.tilshead-caravans.com/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.htm#Licence

My brother is a police officer, he holds a B licence, he has declined my offer to have a go driving dragon bus. You don't want to get pulled by him, he's read the traffic officers companion :lol:

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

Ring the CPS or travelworld or the American motorhome mags, The names there 2001

I have spoke to CPS you can hear them squirm when you ask what evidence was missing.

Cant find details of vehicle at moment but huge well in excess of 7.5 Tonnes

and they contended he did not need HGV licence so he only had car licence.

 

[88808]

Hi Jonathon

Ring the CPS or travelworld or the American motorhome mags, The names there 2001

I have spoke to CPS you can hear them squirm when you ask what evidence was missing.

Cant find details of vehicle at moment but huge well in excess of 7.5 Tonnes

and they contended he did not need HGV licence so he only had car licence.

But you are not giving me any hard facts or evidence, just hear say.

I have proven through legislation that it is illegal to drive a motorhome over 3500KG with a B licence. You cannot give me any evidence which contradicts the law as written.

My mate drove from Cornwall to Edinburgh in a LWB transit pulling a double axle trailer with an American car on the back. He's not got a licence to pull that size of trailer on a vehicle that size. He got pulled by the police for a routine check, he did not produce his licence at the scene. They just took it at face value he had the correct licence. Does that mean therefor a legal precedent has been set where anyone can do that and the police will not touch them.

Weight is an issue for people who hold a licence which is restricted by weight.

My category B licence was quite specific, 3500KG. I could not drive a limo with a MAM over 3500KG on my B licence as it was over the weight limit, despite it being "a car".

 

[88724]

Jonathon the evidence is there

RING and ASK

You are wrong the leguislation does not support you at all.

Fin

 

[88808]

Here it is in black and white. This is the legislation as contained in the SI relating to Driving licences.

What the legislation actually tells us is that you can drive a vehicle upto 3500KG with a category B licence.

It then tells us what other vehicles can be driven on a category B licence.

For me that is black and white. With a category B car licence you can drive;

Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the large vehicles listed below:

a goods vehicle propelled by steam (e.g. large vehicles with coal or wood burning engines);

road construction vehicles used or kept on the road solely for the conveyance of built-in road construction machinery (with or without articles or materials used for the purpose of that machinery);

engineering plant (vehicles designed or constructed for the purpose of engineering operations for mobile cranes see * below)

works trucks (primarily designed for use in private premises or in the immediate vicinity e.g. dumper trucks/forklift trucks);

industrial tractors (tractors used mainly for haulage work off the public road, the vehicle must not have an unladen weight exceeding 7370kgs and have a design speed not exceeding 20mph);

agricultural motor vehicles which are not agricultural or forestry tractors (primarily used off the public road e.g. crop sprayer/combine harvester);

digging machines (vehicles which are limited to travel on a public road only for the purpose of proceeding to or from sites - used for trench digging or any kind of excavating or shovelling work e.g. vehicles with digging buckets / shovels);

goods vehicle which is not used on public roads or, if it is so used during any calendar week -

is used only in passing from land in the occupation of a person keeping the vehicle to other land in the occupation of that person, and

is not used on public roads for distances exceeding an aggregate of 9.7 kilometres in that calendar week;

goods vehicle, other than an agricultural motor vehicle, which -

is used only for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry,

is used on roads only in passing between different areas of land occupied by the same person, and

in passing between any two such areas does not travel a distance exceeding 1.5 kilometres on roads;

goods vehicles used for no purpose other than the haulage of lifeboats and the conveyance of the necessary gear of the lifeboats which are being hauled;

goods vehicles manufactured before 1 January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer;

articulated goods vehicles not exceeding 3.05 tonnes unladen weight;

goods vehicle in the service of a visiting force or headquarters as defined in the Visiting Forces and International Headquarters (Application of Law Order 1965 (a));

goods vehicle driven by a constable for the purpose of removing or avoiding obstruction to other road users or other members of the public, for the purpose of protecting life or property (including the vehicle and its load) or for other similar purposes;

goods vehicle fitted with apparatus designed for raising a disabled vehicle partly from the ground and for drawing a disabled vehicle when so raised (whether by partial superimposition or otherwise) being a vehicle which -

is used solely for dealing with disabled vehicles;

is not used for the conveyance of any goods or load other than a disabled vehicle when so raised and water, fuel, accumulators and articles required for the operation of, or in connection with, such apparatus or otherwise for dealing with disabled vehicles; and

has an unladen weight not exceeding 3.05 tonnes;

mobile project vehicles - having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes and constructed or adapted to carry not more than 8 persons in addition to the driver and carries principally goods or burden consisting of;

play or educational equipment and articles required in connection with the use of such equipment, or

articles required for the purposes of display or of an exhibition, and the primary purpose of which is used as a recreational, educational or instructional facility when stationary.

Drivers must be aged 21 and have held a category B licence for at least 2 years. A mobile project vehicle may only be driven on behalf of a non-commercial body. However, drivers who passed their car test before 1 January 1997 are not subject to these conditions.

*MOBILE CRANES
Category B licence holders were able to drive mobile cranes up until 31 December 1998. From1st January 1999 a category C1 driving licence is required to drive a mobile crane which exceeds 3.5 tonnes but not 7.5 tonnes and category C if over 7.5 tonnes.

Now if it's not on the list of things that can be driven on a B licence then it I would say that it cannot be driven?

 

[88724]

So Jonathon

Are all the police stupid? why do they not pass these cases to the CPS?

Plod on ground if they dont know radio through to traffic legal officer and he checks all these officers must be stupid too


Why in 30 + years as there never been a single prosecution, are all police officers stupid, by implication that is whatvyou are saying, ask your brother to quote one case.

Ring the CPS and ask about that case see if you find their story believable

Ring Travelworld.

everything out there in the real world says that even if you are right, its totally ignored and after a recent ruling that would be a defence, there is a precedent been set in another motorhome case about ilegal width on American Motorhomes ie because its been turned a blind eye to for years it as in effect become legal !! Strange but true.

So applying that ruling, because its been ignored for years it as become legal (even assuming you were right, in the first place)

Really its down to the punters now.

 

[Detourer]

Evening George and Jonathan

IF I get nicked................will you both come to court with me?

 

[88808]

How do you know that your "test case" is the only case where a driver has been prosecuted for driving without the correct licence category?

My brother will not drive dragon bus, because he is under the misguided (apparently) opinion that his driving licence only permits him to drive vehicles upto 3500KG plus those on the exemption list. Although in his capacity as a police officer he can legally drive my vehicle to clear the road in the event of an emergency.

A police officer on the street doesnt know the differnce between a 7.5 tonne lorry and a 14 tonne lorry. They can both in fact be the same vehicle. Simply deplate a 14 tonne lorry to 7.5 tonne and you can drive it on a C1 licence. From the outside you can't tell the difference.

I knew a guy who held an automatic bus licence, he wanted to drive manual coaches. So he went to a back street coach company and got a job driving manual coaches. He never carried his licence. If he was ever stopped he would take his licence into the police station. The staff at the police station don't know that the vehicle was manual, they just check that he had a valid bus licence. Which he did.

My bus instructor passed his one and only driving test in a double decker bus. He had never driven a car in his life. Things have changed since then. I have a mate who passed his car test 6 months before me. He can drive C1 on his licence yet I passed the same test just after the 1997 change over and only got B on my licence.

When I passed my D licence I could not drive a 7.5tonner yet my mate who has never had a single lesson in anything bigger than a corsa could.

 

[legend]

I'm giving up reading these pages!

I'll take my chances.

Have a good time lads.

I'm sure you'll get it sorted sometime.

 

[88808]

I'll ask my brother to pull a motorhome and attempt to charge the driver if they don't have the correct licence entitlement. Best keep out of the Edinburgh area for a while :lol: :lol:

 

[Detourer]

All the confusion and doubt re paperwork aside, what are you saying. "affected" Mhome/RV/Converted owners should have HGV?

 

[fdhadi]

Did you know you can drive a huge monster Crane on a car licence!!!!!!!!!

Also, people who use their own cars or parents cars for driving tests do not generally have insurance cover.
Most insurance states
" not insured for test purposes"

Frank

 

[88808]

Did you know you can drive a huge monster Crane on a car licence!!!!!!!!!

Frank

*MOBILE CRANES
Category B licence holders were able to drive mobile cranes up until 31 December 1998. From1st January 1999 a category C1 driving licence is required to drive a mobile crane which exceeds 3.5 tonnes but not 7.5 tonnes and category C if over 7.5 tonnes.

Also, people who use their own cars or parents cars for driving tests do not generally have insurance cover.
Most insurance states
" not insured for test purposes"

The DSA have a box at the top of the driving test form which the learner is required to sign. It is a disclaimer to the effect that they are insured to drive the vehicle for the purpose of the driving test. The DSA do not ask to see the insurance policy, they have covered their own back and put the onus on the driver to ensure they are covered. A driving test examiner will never drive a vehicle that is used on a test regardless of whether it is a private car or a driving school car.

The only time an examiner will drive is for the ADI part 3 test where the examiner drives the car to role play a learner. The PDI must sign a disclaimer to the effect that the examiner is insured to drive the car. The examiner may ask to see the policy as they are driving the vehicle.

 

[88724]

Hi Jonathon

You asked a pertinant Question

RING CPS ask about that case, then ask them have they ever prosecuted a case, they may get arsey and make you write in (they didnt with me) to Save time they may just tell you over the Phone, that NO they have never ever prosecuted anyone for driving a Motorhome over 7.5 Tonnes, if they at first try to bluff ask them for the case name (and reference)

If your brother asks they will not press it forward anyway, they will call him back and send the motorhome on its way, if its same as UK system(do the Scottish courts go via CPS ? not 100% certain how the law works up there)

Why do you assume the Police are dumb Jon? I will have to have a word with a few traffic cops tommorow if I get time and see how stupid they really are. I cant believe a traffic cop doesnt know anything about vehicles as per your statement, by your reckoning no traffic cop kows anything about any vehicle so we should all be safe anyway !!

Night

 

[88808]

All the confusion and doubt re paperwork aside, what are you saying. "affected" Mhome/RV/Converted owners should have HGV?

The legislation states that you need a licence to drive a vehicle based on the MAM, so if the vehicle is over 7500KG a category C licence is required. Regardless of whether it is used to carry "goods" the only exception being a PCV which is covered by the D licence.

On the ground if a C1 holder is stopped by the police in a large vehicle the police may not know the MAM of the vehicle and assume it is under 7500KG ???

If a B licence holder was stopped by the police in a 40ft RV I would imagine they would start asking questions.