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Lithium batteries explained by Clive Mott.

2K views 38 replies 7 participants last post by  eurajohn 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Yes he was a useful member, I often go to his website.
 
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#4 ·
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#6 ·
I have noted that when people replace their existing batteries with LiFePo4 they usually opt for one battery, maybe because they are quite expensive.

I wonder whether that is wise because of the risk of one cell failing in that battery leaving one with no battery power.

Or are LiFePo4 less prone to cell failure?

Informed comments, please.
 
#7 ·
I have been researching them and see no adverse comments relating to cell failure, but of course as time passes as with all batteries some cells will break down before the others.

It does seem that LiFePo4 are less likely to catch fire and I'd hazard a guess that they don't emit gas so won't explode. Having had a lead acid go off like a bomb below the floor under my bed a few years ago I'd count that a big plus.

If you haven't seen a good battery explosion you may not understand. Check it out on youtube.
 
#8 ·
 
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#9 ·
Thanks Alan that's a real game changer. I was aware of the new lithium technology but didn't realise that some of them can be regularly discharged down to 5% without causing deterioration. That compared to the 50% discharge threshold for the lead acid ones increases your amount of available power enormously.

Trouble is the equipment on my van shuts off the leisure batteries when their charge falls below 50%. I wonder if it can be changed.
 
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#10 ·
I don't know if you're on the Wild camping forum but there are two Moho electric chaps on there, Wildebus and admin.
 
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#14 ·
So you can discharge to 5% but not good practise to do it regularly.

Even when a LiFePO4 battery is discharged to well below 50%, it will continue to provide a high enough voltage to ensure that appliances operate correctly. *When it’s been discharged by approxmately 95%, a LiFePO4 battery with a good Battery Management System (BMS) will automatically shut down. However, to maximise useful life, i’s recommended that lithium batteries are not continually discharged much below 50%.
 
#15 ·
Yes but that article contradicts itself earlier it states:
  • Voltage remains constant for much longer during discharge.
  • Much higher charging rate and so faster charging – varies according to the charging system used.
  • Can be discharged quickly without damaging the cells, making them ideal for use with inverters.
  • Can be discharged as much as 95% on average without damaging the battery.
  • Thousands of charging cycles compared to just a few hundred from a typical lead-acid battery.
  • Very low rate of self-discharge means they can be left unattended for months.
  • Zero maintenance required.
  • Approximately 40% - 50% lighter than a good quality lead-acid battery with a similar Ah rating.
  • Very safe, with no toxic fumes or liquid and no risk of fire in normal use.
  • The ability to charge quickly from the vehicle’s engine can remove the need for a generator or fuel cell.
  • Can be used in almost every situation where a lead-acid battery is being used to power appliances in a motorhome, campervan or caravan.
If you do some research on internet the commonly held belief and advice is that they will no be damaged by discharging to 95% of capacity.
 
#16 ·
I'm not happy with "Very safe with no toxic fumes or liquid and no risk of fire in normal use"

What would abnormal use be, I ask only because they do catch fire.
 
#20 ·
Please do some research, Lithium-ion batteries DO catch fire.
Lithium iron phosphate (LifePO4) batteries DO NOT.
LifePO4 is the chemistry of batteries now commonly used for motorhome use, they will of course given correct circumstances catch fire but do not cause the massive problems that Lithium-ion ones do.
Notice the different spellings Lithium-ion, Lithium iron phosphate.
 
#23 ·
Please do some research, Lithium-ion batteries DO catch fire.
Lithium iron phosphate (LifePO4) batteries DO NOT.
LifePO4 is the chemistry of batteries now commonly used for motorhome use, they will of course given correct circumstances catch fire but do not cause the massive problems that Lithium-ion ones do.
Notice the different spellings Lithium-ion, Lithium iron phosphate.
Using the description 'Lithium Ferrous Phosphate' avoids the confusion, especially in speech rather than writing.
 
#25 ·
They sound pretty good if for no other reason than the huge reduction in weight. What concerns me a little bit thinking ahead from Clives article there appears to be some restrictions as to what battery types you can use depending on the van make you have. He discusses the difference between Swift and Hymer for example.

I replaced our old 125 ah maintenance free battery with a 120ah AGM earlier this year. Coupled with a single 100w panel and the very clever MPPT controller it's been absolutely amazing all summer. It doesn't sound much when you consider what some people have but until September at least it's been like we were on hookup. Never dropped below 12.5 or 12.6. the van is often stationary for weeks at a time also.

I'm getting a bit cautious now with usage especially up in the Scottish isles but it's getting to the time I would look for EHU anyways

I would consider these for our new van though if we get it. Got to be the way forward I just wonder if there will be hurdles to jump depending on your van choice.
 
#26 ·
They sound pretty good if for no other reason than the huge reduction in weight. What concerns me a little bit thinking ahead from Clives article there appears to be some restrictions as to what battery types you can use depending on the van make you have. He discusses the difference between Swift and Hymer for example.

I replaced our old 125 ah maintenance free battery with a 120ah AGM earlier this year. Coupled with a single 100w panel and the very clever MPPT controller it's been absolutely amazing all summer. It doesn't sound much when you consider what some people have but until September at least it's been like we were on hookup. Never dropped below 12.5 or 12.6. the van is often stationary for weeks at a time also.

I'm getting a bit cautious now with usage especially up in the Scottish isles but it's getting to the time I would look for EHU anyways

I would consider these for our new van though if we get it. Got to be the way forward I just wonder if there will be hurdles to jump depending on your van choice.
How long have you been talking about swapping Hank?

Oh yea you cannot find one with a rear lounge, a garage and a jacuzzi - in mahogany with a pink bathroom - right? 😀
 
#30 ·
Barry, with reference to your new van, the limitations are only relevant if you want to be able to utilise a Lifepo4 without making any other changes.
You will possibly need to change the 230volt charger and wire the solar direct to the new battery, other than that you can enjoy the increased available power and weight saving (both of the battery and your wallet) :)
 
#31 ·
Presumably you dont wire the solar directly to the battery though. They still need an mppt controller?

Solar is our main charging method. Hardly ever go on hookup and when we do it's unlikely we would be spending many nights off grid. Generally the back end, early winter.
 
#32 ·
Can I ask you about sub zero charging John? The implication from what I've read is that attempting to charge when the battery is at or below 0 degs will result in cell damage. Given that in winter quite often I would start up the van in the morning below 0. Would I need to disable charging? Also Solar?

I see for approx 150-200 extra you can get a built in battery management system that has a heater that overcomes that. Money well spent?
 
#33 ·
Or if your battery is stored inside the .motorhome just make sure the van is heated above zero at least before starting it up. I generally disconnect our solar in the winter if it's stood for months anyway. It's useless where it's parked and I've actually seen the controller drag the battery down.
 
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#35 ·
Unfortunately my batteries are in a ventilated slide out locker under the van so the non charging and possible damage in low temps is a bit of a worry as I would say that our leisurely and meandering drive to the med (especially via the Alps) and even in this country can mean many if not the majority of mornings are below zero.

After research I would like the 220AH one in this range. Sterling has a good name and this range has a built in battery management system that incorporates a heater and would compensate for any shortcomings my charging system has.

Pricey i know but if I can dress it up as a present to the wife. Ie TV watching unlimited :) I might get away with it and never ever need another EHU ever again especially with the brilliant B2B.

 
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