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Road tax whilst abroad

8.4K views 86 replies 18 participants last post by  barryd  
#1 ·
Heres a thought that occurred to me...not that I am a law breaker, I just think things through logically ...
The DVLA in their infinate wisdom insist we tax our vehicles even when they are out of the country, which in IMO is a total joke, as is the M O T stature that a vehicle registered in the UK MUST be M O Td in the UK (which meant to me back in 2012 we had to M O T the van 6 months early as we were touring for 12 months and was not prepared to return home simply to M O T her). Anyway I digress....What stops you, once you are abroad from using one of these sites that change your IP address making it look like your are in the UK. SORN your vehicle and simply go online just prior to your return to the UK and cancel the SORN and apply for new tax ?

DJM
 
#3 ·
I would not risk that, as you state, but as we are going to be pitched at the same site for 6 months and never move the van, that would not happen. It would be in point of fact off road wouldn't it ?

DJM
 
#7 ·
That seems logical to me DJM. Provided you don't move the beastie and it is off the road AND your insurance will cover you for any mishaps whilst it is stationary, it seems a sensible approach.

Its the same as having it in storage for 6 months (and you need your own insurance for that unless covered by the storage site) or on your driveway, surely?

Graham :smile2:
 
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#4 ·
You do not need to be in the UK to Sorn your vehicle. I know of someone :D who had to do just that when he realised his MOT had not been done before going away when he came to tax the motorhome from abroad. To avoid a fine for no tax it was the only option, apparently.

Its all a bit of a grey area. I cannot see why unless its specifically stated why an insurer would not pay out for a vehicle that does not have excise duty. If I electrocuted someone at my place of business would my public liability refuse to pay if I was late with my VAT bill?
 
#5 ·
When you are abroad, the vehicle must be as it should be when in the UK to be legal in the country you are visiting. So if your vehicle should be MOT, insured and road fund licence paid in the UK then it has to be elsewhere.You cannot claim it off road if it is ON road elsewhere. If you search you will find previous threads that cover this subject to death. >:)>:)

cabby
 
#8 ·
Yes I saw the thread about the Spanish police supposedly checking tax. Wonder how they would do that now though on the roadside with no tax disk. I would have thought though that if you were on a long term site for say six months there should be no problem sorning your vehicle and no risk really unless your insurance does actually say it needs to be taxed.
 
#9 ·
...on a site as well you could take your Reg plate off too I guess (like tuggers do when they dump their vans for 6/9 months at a time on a seasonal site).

Graham:smile2:
 
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#10 ·
I still feel that a 'TAX' in UK is not a legal requirement in any other country.
Some insurance companies have made 'tax' a requirement but I still maintain is not a legal requirement.
DVLC are hardly law makers and have been shown to be incompetent on many occasions.

I don't think it has ever been put to the test in law.

Ray.
 
#11 ·
DJM

The rules for SORNing a vehicle state that it must be a UK Vehicle, which is defined as one present in the UK.

Having said that the form does not ask where the vehicle is, and in a conversation with DVLA it was rather pointedly said 'We do not ask for nformation on where it is', although the rules state that DVLA may ask for this information. I do not know what good that information would be to them, as I am sure that there are no DVLA mobile units checking and, since they have closed al their Regional Offices, everyone is based in Swansea.

As for not being taxed/MOTed; for UK law purposes it is only an offence to use a vehicle on a UK road without a valid VED and MOT, with the exception of driving to a pre-arranged MOT test. As to the law and police in other countries are concerned I certainly think they could demand that the vehicle has an MOT but I doubt that they can validly claim that it is not legal in the country of registration because a tax has not been paid, because as I said above, it is only illegal to use it on a UK road without tax. However that 'validity' argument might cut no ice with the Guardia Civil, with a gun, although as Barry has said, how do they check now there is no Disc?

As for Insurers denying a claim, they can make almost anything a condition of the policy, so check the policy. If there is no condition therein, I doubt whether they could claim that non-disclosure of the fact put them at a disadvantage and increased their risk. Any vehicle insurance issued in an EU country has to be valid for cover in all EU countries, for at least the minimum cover required in each country(usually Third Party Cover), so an Allianz policy issued in UK or Poland would be valid in both countries; Poland does not have any road tax, so a claim on a Polish policy for an accident in UK could not be denied - it would be a bit difficult for Allianz to operate different criteria because a policy was issued in UK. As an insurance lawyer, who as acted on behalf of insurers and claimants, I would like to take them on if they tried to deny on this basis.:wink2:

I agree with you about the fact that MOT can only be conducted on UK vehicles in UK. We suffer from this every year. It is ridiculous that all vehicles can be circulating all over Europe on different tests with different renewal periods. I makes me laugh when EU personnel use words such as 'conformity', 'unification' and 'solidarity' - they only use them when it is about something they wish to control, but not necessarily for something that would be beneficial for the guy in the street.

Enough for my brain on a Sunday.

Geoff
 
#12 ·
Insurance companies can put whatever conditions they choose to on your insurance. If they make it a condition of insurance that it is taxed and tested EVEN when abroad then they can refuse to payout in the event of a claim because you have not complied with THEIR terms and conditions.

It's a minefield and, for the cost of a couple of months tax (PHG is only ÂŁ165 per year) I would not risk it. Remember "Sods law" covers these sort of circumstances.

Andy
 
#14 ·
As for authorities checking whether road tax had been paid in another country, the whole system is ridiculous and probably breaches international law.

I have a UK registered MH(which is taxed), but were it not, then on the basis of posts above the Spanish Police might try to fine me.

If I re-register it in Poland, where there is no road tax, the same MH would be driving in Spain with the same driver, who pays all other taxes in UK, and there is nothing the Spanish Police can do.

How Ridiculous!:surprise:

EU? They could not find the brewery, never mind organise .....

Geoff
 
#16 ·
Hi

My original statement was ONCE I get to the camp we are aiming for on the Algarve (arrival Jan 2017) I am going to try and sorn her as we are not leaving there until 2 April, as the van will not move off site for the whole of that time, so she is off road. I checked with my insurers and the under writers and they say that is acceptable.

Cheers
DJM
 
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#17 · (Edited)
What Spanish law would an untaxed UK vehicle be breaking while driving in Spain? How could any Spanish authority enforce the UK law on vehicle excise duty? I doubt that there's ever been a case of anyone having been penalised, either inside or outside of the UK for having driven a UK registered vehicle outside the UK while it was untaxed. Excepting where the insurance requires the the vehicle to be taxed in the UK which would create a new offence enforceable anywhere in Europe, that of driving while uninsured.

If anyone can give just one single authoritatively documented of such a court case having happened or of any vehicle having been crushed for that reason I'll happily give ÂŁ100 to a charity of their choice and send them the receipt.


You may as well say there's an 1850 law saying that in Spain sheep can't be driven to market on a Thursday and thus a Spanish man is bound by that same law regardless of where he lives.
 
#20 ·
Thinking about it I could have sorned out van on this CL. We have been here over three weeks and with the weather continuing to be superb and the only work being trying to sort Tuggers out with a mission control system which is voluntary it seems we are likely to be here for another three. Thats got to be worth at least two cases of Leffe in tax. :(
 
#22 ·
I do know that Germany and Spain have compulsory vehicle road tax - visitors are exempt from paying this if they have up to date vehicle tax in U.K. In Germany you have to show that you have vehicle insurance before it can be taxed. Don't know about Spain. Netherlands also have hefty vehicle road tax. So in those countries you do by law have to have your vehicle taxed and insured either in that country or the one of your residence. France is the only European country I know of which doesn't have vehicle road tax.
 
#23 ·
I do know that Germany and Spain have compulsory vehicle road tax - visitors are exempt from paying this if they have up to date vehicle tax in U.K. In Germany you have to show that you have vehicle insurance before it can be taxed. Don't know about Spain. Netherlands also have hefty vehicle road tax. So in those countries you do by law have to have your vehicle taxed and insured either in that country or the one of your residence. France is the only European country I know of which doesn't have vehicle road tax.
Poland does not have vehicle road tax, as I have said before. I am sure Polish and French vehicles are legal driving through Germany. Can you please quote the German law which says tax must be paid in the country of registration for vehicles in transit? I would be interested to know how it differentiates between UK and Polish vehicles.

AFAIK there is no legal requirement for a UK vehicle to carry proof that VED has been paid, now that the 'Tax disc' is no longer in existence. Foreign police would have therefore to contact DVLA to ascertain the info - difficult enough in the UK.:surprise:

Geoff
 
#25 ·
Well I do not know how long you were living there, but most countries have a legal requirement that if a vehicle is in the country for more than 6 months it has to be re-registered in that country.

Of course, since Schengen did away with border controls the authorities have difficulty proving the time a vehicle has been in a country. They cannot put ANPR cameras on every byroad.

Just in case anyone thinks, from the way I am discussing this subject, that my vehicle is in anyway illegal, I assure my readers that it is MOTed and Taxed in the UK and has not been in any other country for more than 6 months.:smile2:

Geoff
 
#27 ·
I don't understand why anyone would want to save a few quid and possibly run foul of the law either abroad or in the UK. Suppose you have to go out on the road, or there's an emergency and you have to get home? The amount saved in proportion of the costs of your trip is minuscule. You could save the same, or more, in other ways. Not worth the hassle imho.
 
#30 ·
I don't understand why anyone would want to save a few quid and possibly run foul of the law either abroad or in the UK. Suppose you have to go out on the road, or there's an emergency and you have to get home? The amount saved in proportion of the costs of your trip is minuscule. You could save the same, or more, in other ways. Not worth the hassle imho.
For some of us it is not about saving a few quid, but the difficulty of getting to UK for the due date for the MOT, without which one cannot pay the VED, even if one wants to do so. It happened to me a couple of years ago, but I got MOT straight off the ferry and paid VED half an hour later.

Geoff
 
#33 ·
Nethernet was living in Germany.

I would still be interested to know what local law one has broken, in Germany or any other country, if one is not resident there and is merely transitting the country.

It would be rather ridiculous if the police in a country like Poland, or France, tried to prosecute for no UK VED, when there is no equivalent in their own country.

We have heard about the Spanish fining people, but I think that has been for people who are living there, not just transitting.

Geoff
 
#34 ·
Gov.uk: "Your vehicle must stay in the UK for your SORN to be valid." Also, to drive abroad you have to be legal in the UK, therefore, a licence, VED, MOT and Insurance. End of.

I think that answers it. Re MOT if it's going to expire while abroad then get it mot'd again before you go. Yes, I know that's a few more ÂŁÂŁ's "down the drain" but in the big picture it's peanuts. And, I'm sorry, but folk with expensive kit whining about having to watch the pounds and trying to scam it really is nauseating when there are so many of us having to use food banks etc. Try drinking a bit less, or fewer meal out, or drive more slowly..... Graham
 
#36 ·
When you can drive your vehicle

You can only drive a vehicle with a SORN on a public road to go to or from a pre-booked MOT or other testing appointment. You face court prosecution and a fine of up to ÂŁ2,500 if you use it on the road for any other reason.

I think this just about covers it.

cabby
 
#37 ·
Compared to the cost of a MH and the potential cost of extra point on licence plus increased insurance costs if you have points, and the potential fine for such an offence ,to me not having valid VED is a no-brainer.

If you are away and it is due, renew it on line, you no longer need the VED disc, but it can be checked RAPIDLY by anyone with internet access...

Check VED status

similar access exists for MoT and of course, any police force anywhere in the EU could use that system easily - hence why it has been reported that in Spain the Police have someone (possibly from the DVLA) with a computer checking the validity.

If you are found NOT to be legal in Europe as regards VED, your insurance may also be invalidated, as has been said already and the vehicle can be impounded until court case completed - that would certainly muck up any holiday.

IMO it's simply not worth it.....

Dave
 
#38 ·
As Raynipper said, why give DVLA money for old rope. I will be on a site in Portugal ( with a valid MOT ) for at least 3 months with out moving. My insurance stated as long as it does not go on the highway and has a valid MOT I can sorn the van. If for any reason I need to drive her away, I will go online and re tax her, no problem about being outside the UK as the programme I run gives me an IP address in UK. That means I have ÂŁ60+ I can spend how I like. Some people may be able to laugh off ÂŁ60+ I sadly cannot, but even if I could, I would not. And I am a Lancashire lad not a Yorkshire man lol

It's just common sense IMHO

DJM
 
#40 ·
In your static situation I can totally understand and agree with your decision, my previous post refers to the vast majority of vehicles that are not parked for extended periods.

Presumably under the "new" VED rules you can only SORN for whole months i.e. if you arrive on say 5th November, you cannot SORN until 1st December and if you plan to leave 3 months later on say 5th February you would be liable for VED from 1st February?

So you would , sadly, only gain 2/3 of the ÂŁ60 for 3 months = ÂŁ40. but it's still better than a kick in the teeth and I can totally understand your justification, sadly DVLA often reply with what they "think the law ought to be" rather than "what the law actually states" and will never explain their rationale...........

Three people asking the same question would probably get 4 answers and all would be wrong anyway...... :confused:

Dave
 
#42 ·
Sorry that's the UK government insisting that pay RFD on vehicles while they're outside the UK.

What's under discussion here is what law could be used in another country to act against the owner/drive of an untaxed UK registered vehicle in another state, ie. one where UK law does not apply.

No I can't cite a source which says the opposite but you are asking for proof of a negative.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Your hardly fiddling the tax man though Wug or making others subsidise the OP for sorning his vehicle while parked in a foreign country for a few months. Can people not see the logic here? VED is due for using a UK Vehicle on UK roads. If that vehicle is not using UK roads and not even in the UK why should you have to pay tax as if it is? What is the difference of say my van being parked on my drive for six months and sorned or it being parked in a field in France for six months and sorned?

I pay my taxes and would never dream of fiddling them or performing tax evasion but tax avoidance? You bet!! If there is a way to avoid it legally then only a fool would not take it. The question of course in this case being is it actually Illegal or is it just DVLA Saying its against their rules?
 
#44 ·
DVLA do not make the rules and AFAIK this situation has neither been decided in a Court of Law or mentioned by any Minister, Parliament makes the laws (with the EU situation on the back burner for a moment) ad then they are interpreted by a Court of Law.

The same goes with "A" frames - their legality has never been decided by a Court, so they are a "grey area". The SORN situation is crazy - DVLA assumes that you are liable for VED 365//365 and you have to take the onus of saying "no my vehicle is not on UK roads" - that SHOULD mean it is not liable for VED, DVLA cannot arbitrarily decide to change the arrangements UNLESS the Government has given them that power.

and that is what I do not know - whether the Government has ever given them the power to change things without reference and only a Court can decide if such a change is backed by the law or not. That would be expensive.

The MH under discussion will not be on roads. End of discussion.

If it was in the UK it would be SORN'ed, so why should it NOT be SORN'ed if it is in the EU? At present you are required to follow National Laws as regards your vehicle and things like MoT, insurance etc., so it should therefore be correct to SORN the vehicle since it will NOT be on ANY roads.....

As long as the insurance company are happy (and I would suggest have confirmed that in writing) then that is the logical route.

He will be following UK law EXACTLY for the period it is parked up.

Dave